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ewlandon
Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Location: teacher
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 Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| iggyb wrote: |
What hakwon gives people a 2 or 3 bedroom apartment?
I got a 2 bedroom place in a hakwon once � along with a living room. Another teacher was put in the other bedroom and a 2nd in the living room. (Back when shared housing was common.)
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| Frugal single teachers can easily save $1000 per month here out of their regular salaries |
So, 1 million for 1 person. 1.2 million for the other 3. Her children will love her. Cup a noodles for breakfast. Cup a noodles for lunch. Cup a noodles for dinner.
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| Your older daughter should buckle down and learn a lot of Korean in advance�then she�ll make it� |
Good grief�
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| Your husband can learn to make kimchi |
Are you trolling on purpose?
Most of the negative advice so far has been realistic. |
I'm pretty sure that whole post was one big trolling attempt. |
He isnt trolling he is trying to be nice and tell her how her dream may be possible.
First, I dont think moving a family with older children here is a good idea but the advice here is correct.
A single person can save more than 1000 per month if they live frugally in Seoul. In the sticks a frugal person could get by on 300,000 won a month after bills pretty easily. If they learn how to shop and they live in the sticks than the money is probably enough to get by and still eat well.
Also, how does you husband feel about learning to make kimchi like the old housewives in Korea? And how does your 13 year old feel about taking entensive Korean courses so that you can move her to the sticks in Korea?
The kids are going to be unhappy and well im not going to repeat what I and many others have said but its a bad idea. It could be a good idea but only if you were thinking of a long-term situation not a year or two. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ewlandon wrote: |
| He isnt trolling he is trying to be nice and tell her how her dream may be possible. |
I'm skeptical, considering this:
| ontheway wrote: |
| You can find a job that will give you and your family a 2 or even 3 bedroom apartment at no charge as part of your contract. Many schools do that as standard housing for all teachers. Your taxes, health insurance and pension will take less than 10% of your pay and monthly utilities will take less than 15% per month on average. |
Granted, I live in the Seoul area, but I do know plenty of people who have lived in the countryside, and I don't know anyone who has ever been given an apartment that large as standard. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Hello OP,
Many posters on here are being overly pessimistic. My post on page two outlined briefly a number of pitfalls and concerns, and it wasn't exhaustive, but I wouldn't want to leave you with the view that your dream is impossible or even a bad idea.
Now, there may be personal reasons within your family that make coming here too difficult or it may be that you are not cut out to be a teacher, but there is no reason based on conditions in Korea that you shouldn't give your plan a try.
You can find a job that will give you and your family a 2 or even 3 bedroom apartment at no charge as part of your contract. Many schools do that as standard housing for all teachers. Your taxes, health insurance and pension will take less than 10% of your pay and monthly utilities will take less than 15% per month on average.
You can live on 2.2 million won per month with your familiy of 4 and still save money. Food just isn't that expensive here, if you learn to eat Korean staples and give up the expensive foods from back home that many expats won't give up. Frugal single teachers can easily save $1000 per month here out of their regular salaries and add the pension and year end severance pay to the savings pot for the year. If you are frugal and budget well, you can certainly take care of your additional family expenses out of that $1000 since your housing is paid for and you don't need a car.
Your older daughter should buckle down and learn a lot of Korean in advance - get some books and tapes now - then she can enroll and make it in Korean school and supplement her education with homeschooling. Your youngest can adapt quickly to Korean school - many foreign youngsters have done it.
You should absolutely look for a smaller sized city where you will be more welcome, the cost of living is much cheaper, your family will make Korean friends, the school will offer large housing as a standard and there are ample cheap and free options for family fun time. Your husband can shop at early morning farmers' markets and learn to make Kimchi. If you can go with the zen of Korea it will work out fine.
Many young people come to Korea to party while holding positions as teachers and don't understand how to make a family work and live on a budget or how to live well on less. They blow through their money by going out needlessly and buying expensive and useless stuff. This is especially true in the biggest cities where the cost of life and party fare takes most of their pay. If your alternate lifestyle means you're used to getting by as a family and making do, then you can easily do that here. Many Korean families do fine on less than 2.2 million per month without free housing provided by an employer. |
Wow that is not accurate at all..sorry.
Have you lived in Korea on ONE salary of 2.2 supporting 3 dependants???
The Korean families you mention that live on 2.2 typically have an appartment they own with no morgage because they had saved up for YEARS before or they paid substantial KEY MONEY to get a good place.
You are right on one thing: the OP would best be served cost-wise by looking for work in a smaller city. Appartments will be easier to find too. The flip side to this will be that her kids and her husband may have a hard time in a smaller city vs Seoul, Busan or Daegu.
Enrolling her kids in Korean school is an option and they would eventually catch up but it would be very hard for her older kid (13 year old).
I thin k you are underestimating the costs of feeding, clothing, housing and supporting 3 dependents on ONE salary of 2.2.
It would require more than being "frugal". |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:53 am Post subject: |
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Countryside is better in terms of provided housing and some costs, but in terms of her husband working, it greatly cuts opportunities down.
I'm not like some. I didn't do privates myself because I didn't want to break the law and valued my free time (which was precious little in hakwons), but if it came to a livable standard of living for myself and family, I'd do it. In the less populated areas, that would be much more noticeable, run the greater risk of causing friction, and greater risk of being turned over to the authorities.
In the cities, it is done commonly with little risk - though is still wrong and illegal. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
Hello OP,
Many posters on here are being overly pessimistic. My post on page two outlined briefly a number of pitfalls and concerns, and it wasn't exhaustive, but I wouldn't want to leave you with the view that your dream is impossible or even a bad idea.
Now, there may be personal reasons within your family that make coming here too difficult or it may be that you are not cut out to be a teacher, but there is no reason based on conditions in Korea that you shouldn't give your plan a try.
You can find a job that will give you and your family a 2 or even 3 bedroom apartment at no charge as part of your contract. Many schools do that as standard housing for all teachers. Your taxes, health insurance and pension will take less than 10% of your pay and monthly utilities will take less than 15% per month on average.
You can live on 2.2 million won per month with your familiy of 4 and still save money. Food just isn't that expensive here, if you learn to eat Korean staples and give up the expensive foods from back home that many expats won't give up. Frugal single teachers can easily save $1000 per month here out of their regular salaries and add the pension and year end severance pay to the savings pot for the year. If you are frugal and budget well, you can certainly take care of your additional family expenses out of that $1000 since your housing is paid for and you don't need a car.
Your older daughter should buckle down and learn a lot of Korean in advance - get some books and tapes now - then she can enroll and make it in Korean school and supplement her education with homeschooling. Your youngest can adapt quickly to Korean school - many foreign youngsters have done it.
You should absolutely look for a smaller sized city where you will be more welcome, the cost of living is much cheaper, your family will make Korean friends, the school will offer large housing as a standard and there are ample cheap and free options for family fun time. Your husband can shop at early morning farmers' markets and learn to make Kimchi. If you can go with the zen of Korea it will work out fine.
Many young people come to Korea to party while holding positions as teachers and don't understand how to make a family work and live on a budget or how to live well on less. They blow through their money by going out needlessly and buying expensive and useless stuff. This is especially true in the biggest cities where the cost of life and party fare takes most of their pay. If your alternate lifestyle means you're used to getting by as a family and making do, then you can easily do that here. Many Korean families do fine on less than 2.2 million per month without free housing provided by an employer. |
Wow that is not accurate at all..sorry.
Have you lived in Korea on ONE salary of 2.2 supporting 3 dependants???
The Korean families you mention that live on 2.2 typically have an appartment they own with no morgage because they had saved up for YEARS before or they paid substantial KEY MONEY to get a good place.
You are right on one thing: the OP would best be served cost-wise by looking for work in a smaller city. Appartments will be easier to find too. The flip side to this will be that her kids and her husband may have a hard time in a smaller city vs Seoul, Busan or Daegu.
Enrolling her kids in Korean school is an option and they would eventually catch up but it would be very hard for her older kid (13 year old).
I thin k you are underestimating the costs of feeding, clothing, housing and supporting 3 dependents on ONE salary of 2.2.
It would require more than being "frugal". |
As you say, Korean families can do it because they have no mortgage, they have saved up the Key money for a no rent apartment or purchased a unit.
This means the OP's family will be in exactly the same place as the Korean family. They, too, will have an apartment with no monthly rent - just like the Korean family that can make it. So, they can do it too.
Yes, there are numerous schools, outside the big cities, that provide large sized housing - 2 and 3 bedrooms - I've seen them up to 28 pyeong. And it will be harder to find a job for the OP, because she will have to hold out for a school that provides larger housing. She will have to prepare her kids for Korean school, and her family will have to be on-board for this lifestyle.
I've seen several foreign families that have been able to not only live on a 2.2 salary (and less for a public school family) with up to 3 children plus a spouse and no illegal teaching, but they saved money while doing it. I know Korean families getting by on less.
And I've seen kids who came to Korea and did OK in the Korean public schools for a two year stretch having arrived with no Korean skills and taught in English at home by a foreign father not eligible to teach English.
To make this work you have to get out of the big cities and you have to eat rice and give up beef. You have to eat like the Korean families do - the hundreds of thousands of Korean families that live and support their children on less than 2.2 million won per month.
It can be done by people who know how to manage money - if you stay out of the big cities it's far easier. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:14 am Post subject: |
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I could be done but one key factor that differenciates a Korean family from the OPs family: support network.
She will have none. A typical Korean family has a large support network.
Look, lets get real here, it can be done but it will not be an adventure. Furthermore, unless you are supporting 3 dependents on 2.2 yourself as a foreigner in Korea, you are speaking in hypotheticals.
I think there are some rather large red flags for the OP not the least of which will be her spouse and how he will deal with all the home responsibilies in a foreign country.
2.2 will not take that family very far, especially when you factor in food for a family of 4 (including a teenager), clothing for a family of 4, education costs, utilities...
I think it would be wise for the OP to take a bit more time to carefully analyze the potential move to Korea.
Thats all. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Of course it will be difficult, money will be tight, and I pointed out a whole list of problems on page two. But it is doable, and many families know how to get by on much less than the OP will be making and save. There are tightwad groups in the US that spend practically nothing and save everything - most people never really learn how to manage their own money.
It will be an adventure for the family - but a very low cost one. If it doesn't work out they can go home after one year. They will be better off financially if they do several years - but that's only workable if they can successfully handle the education of their kids.
It will help to have a social network to help the family - that kind of thing is possible in a family oriented school in a smaller community.
Ultimately whether or not this can work for any particular family - in this case the OP's family - depends on: (1) the family and the lifestyle and way of living their family is used to. Maybe they already struggle and live a frugal lifestyle. (2) The community they choose and how easy it is to live there, local costs, and the kind of support network they can develop, and (3) the school and the kind of housing and other help they will provide the family. And all of this is dependent on the ability of the OP as a teacher - that may be the greatest risk factor.
There are many caring schools and owners that provide larger housing and other assistance to make life easier for their teachers. These are likely to be smaller schools that have been around for a while, in smaller cities, not part of any chain, and not well known. It will be difficult but not impossible to find such a situation.
The OP will have to hold out until she finds the right opportunity and not jump at the typical situation that most others here have experienced. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Agreed. |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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OP,
I smell an awesome opportunity for you in bringing the family to Korea: reality tv show. Kaching! |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: Thanks, Everyone... |
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| carriepaulsmith wrote: |
| ...thanks for your reply to my post... |
No problem  |
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braindrops
Joined: 13 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 12:45 am Post subject: |
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I think the OP has plenty of advice warning her off of the idea of coming to Korea, so I'm just going to toss in an aside. If you are dead-set on coming here, and you're already that far into the "alternative lifestyle" mindset, you may as well just homeschool your kids. I can promise you that, all things considered, you are setting your kids (especially the older one) up to fail, and as a parent, you should be wary of that likelihood. (To use the word "possibility" would be to understate the situation.)
There are many online schools and free online resources for you to build a location-free educational experience for your children. Snoop around and you'll find them.
What I really don't understand, however, is why you would make this a one-year experience. One year is such an arbitrary duration of time. Most people who go for this kind of thing are either independently wealthy or have some kind of passive income rolling in...you, on the other hand, would be working for much of the day, and your husband would take on a tremendous burden (for a laundry list of reasons).
In my experience, those who treat Korea as a temporary, flight-of-fancy, deliberately sought culture shock experience are usually, to put it bluntly, completely unattached. Even then, the logistics of coming over proves to be difficulty for many. Your situation is far more complex than that of the just-graduated college kid, whom most recruiters will seek out to fill first-time gigs. I mean, if I were running an academy, who would be the more attractive candidate: the young, unattached single whose expectations consist of nothing more than a stable salary and a roof over his/her head, or the family of four whose needs and attendant demands are greater (a one-room studio or a 2-3 bedroom apartment for my teacher...hmm...)?
I still cannot see how this would turn out well. If I were you, I would err toward the side of caution: your decisions directly affect more lives than just your own. |
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potblackettle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
OP. You want to come to Korea as a family, get a job with decent housing, have a decent life and a good foreign experience, spend a few years, have your children continue their education, save a little money, and keep all four family members happy and survive as a family unit.
Yes, that seems a tall order and many posters here think it's impossible, but it has been done, it is possible and as pointed out by many above, there are many pitfalls.
First of all, you and your job:
About half of all teachers who come to Korea don't belong here. Even those with teaching credentials and various ESL certifications fail because about half, no matter what their qualifications, don't have what it takes to be a teacher or even to be an employee in any occupation. Many get fired, quit, run, some go from job to job in Korea - 3, 4, 5 or more failed jobs in a year in Korea.
So, before you come, make sure that you really have what it takes to be a teacher. Do you have any teaching experience with children, especially any actual language teaching experience? Having studied a foreign language yourself will help as well. But, make sure you can handle kids in a classroom before you jump into this. With a family you can't afford to fail.
Since you have a call center job, and presumably have been able to hold a real job for many years without being fired or changing jobs, you have what it takes at least to hold a job.
I've seen many families come and make it work, but none with a teenager. I've known families with kids who made it work in Korean elementary schools. On the downside are cases where the working spouse couldn't teach and was fired and one where the at-home spouse bailed and flew home although the breadwinner was quite successful as a teacher and the children were happy.
Your job search will likely be difficult and long. You will want to use as many resources as possible to find a job. Register with several recruiters (only one for some government school jobs), post your resume with a good letter on Dave's and you can even post a link to a resume and photo on this thread. Someone lurking here may have a connection to the job you are seeking.
Finding a good job with good housing:
Most schools - public and private - will not want the bother of helping out a teacher with a family. I would guess that fewer than 1 in 20 will really want to take the trouble to deal with and help out a family And you will need help and you will need to be open and upfront about your need. You will need to show your appreciation as well - many of the failed teachers have never learned to say the words "thank you."
You need bigger housing, so you will have to look in smaller cities. Focus your search in cities with between 200,000 and 1 million population. There are many schools in these medium sized cities that will have no problem providing you with a two bedroom or three bedroom apartment. For many it's already standard for all of their teachers, single or with families. So, look for schools with good housing in medium sized cities.
Income and benefits:
You should expect to make 2.1 or 2.2 million won per month plus free housing. You pay utilities of course. You will likely have to choose a hogwan and work afternoon and evening hours teaching children. 30 class hours per week is standard, but expect paperwork and office hours to bring your actual commitment to the job to 40 hours per week. This schedule will mean your family will eat dinner and do many activities without you and you can't skip your teaching duties even when your children or husband are sick. Generally in Korea you can't even take time away when you are sick yourself. It will be up to your husband to handle the family duties.
Your health insurance will be part of the National Health Insurance, you and your employer split the cost, and your half is about 3% of your monthly pay - there is no extra cost to include your family. Just make sure it's in your contract. Your income taxes should be under 2% and 4.5% for the National Pension matched by your employer that you get back when you leave - so you have a 9% forced savings plan meaning you will save some money while working here. Quality of health care is good, the price of treatment and drugs with the health insurance is reasonable, so that's good news.
I don't believe that any employer will pay airfare for your family. So, your ticket will be paid but you'll have to swing the other three.
Expenses:
Taxes, insurance and pension will eat up 10% of your pay. You should expect your utilities to cost another 10% to 20% depending on how much you spend for heat, A/C, phone calls etc. Plan for 20% and try to spend less.
You know how much it takes to feed a family of four and you can expect to pay about the same here, but you'll have to eat the foods that are standard and inexpensive in Korea. You'll have to give up beef almost totally. Rice, vegetables, chicken and pork, some kinds of fish, fruit in season - the Korean diet will have to be your family's diet. You'll have to find the best markets, early morning farmers' markets etc.
You don't need a car and that's a big savings. Make sure you terminate all of your back home expenses before you come as well.
If you know how to live frugally at home, and don't need expensive entertainment or hobbies, if you can get by on inexpensive or free family activities, you can live and work here on a teacher's salary with your family and still save a bit.
Kids education:
Much of what has been written above is valid. It will be difficult but possible for your 6 year old to attend public elementary school. He or she will get in and have to learn Korean by immersion. So, if your 6 year old is friendly, adaptable, outgoing and ready for a challenge, this can work out. Your husband will have to supplement with English language homeschooling after public school lets out to keep your child up to class level in English.
Your older child will be middle school age and this is your biggest potential problem. The school year begins in March and middle and high school years are difficult and intense for Korean students. It is unlikely that he or she could master enough Korean in a short period of time to perform well. If your child is gifted with languages and a self learner, you could start now with a self-study language course with books and CDs and then arrive early before the school year begins in March and study here with a tutor intensively (expensive) and your child could have a chance at a great experience.
Teenage years are difficult for many (only you know your kids) so you'll have to think this one out the most. Homeschooling is an option, but can your kid and your husband make it work? Supplemental English homeschool on top of Korean school will be especially difficult.
Your husband:
Your husband will be unemployed while you are in Korea. Don't even consider illegal private teaching (for you or your husband) since your family will stand out, be known by all and someone will get jealous or angry and report him or you to Immigration, the police or your school. You will get offers and you should decide in advance that you will resist temptation and refuse.
To have a successful family life will probably require that you not try or expect your husband to earn any money. Instead, he can enrichen your family life, help the children (essential and most important in any case) and keep things running smoothly and on budget, and if you plan, accept and embrace his and your roles before you come, then this should make for a happy experience.
So, your husband will have to be happy being the homemaker and home school teacher. If he's happy with that, some men actually do like that role, then no problem. But, for any couple that comes here, both spouses have to be happy or it won't work.
And family problems, marital problems or personal problems are likely to be magnified under the pressure of living in a strange place, new culture, new job and new language. So, you need to make sure that every family member is ready, happy and on board for the challenges and the changes.
Before you come:
You will be able to find a position if you are serious. Hold out for decent housing, do not accept any job with less than a two bedroom apt.
When you come to Korea, you might want to come alone at first and plan for the rest of your family to come a few weeks later. You can get settled in at your job and make sure that the job is good, you can handle it, and that the housing and other arrangements are adequate. Then your family can follow.
Of course, there is the excitement of coming all together and your school might be more serious, accomodating and excited - and therefore do more for you - if you take the risk and all come together.
Whatever you decide, good luck to you. |
This is the best post on this thread.
I have lived in Korea for five years with my husband and son (our son was born here so it's a little different). My husband stays home with our son and I work. We live much better than Korean taxi drivers and even save money. We have a two bedroom apartment (rural public school jobs give better apartments). My son is absolutely beloved in our little town and starts a pre-K program in two weeks.
Honestly, it depends on you, your husband and your family. Will your husband be comfortable staying home and taking care of kids/house? Are your kids adventurous and willing to make a change?
It was easy for my son, he was born here and Korea is what he knows. It's home for him. He was actually pretty upset on our most recent visit to the U.S. because it was just out of the norm.
My suggestion would be to seriously talk to your husband and your older child. Go over EVERYTHING you've read here with them.
It may take you months of looking for a job before you can find a decent one. Look for a public school job in a more rural area, you'll get a bigger apartment and people tend to be friendlier (just my opinion, I've lived in a medium sized, huge and tiny city in Korea). You will have to BUDGET. EVERYTHING.
That being said, while living on one income we manage to pay all our bills, save and still take trips (I just got back from a trip to Angkor Wat). It honestly all depends on you. |
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potblackettle
Joined: 23 Aug 2006
Location: South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| braindrops wrote: |
I think the OP has plenty of advice warning her off of the idea of coming to Korea, so I'm just going to toss in an aside. If you are dead-set on coming here, and you're already that far into the "alternative lifestyle" mindset, you may as well just homeschool your kids. I can promise you that, all things considered, you are setting your kids (especially the older one) up to fail, and as a parent, you should be wary of that likelihood. (To use the word "possibility" would be to understate the situation.)
There are many online schools and free online resources for you to build a location-free educational experience for your children. Snoop around and you'll find them.
What I really don't understand, however, is why you would make this a one-year experience. One year is such an arbitrary duration of time. Most people who go for this kind of thing are either independently wealthy or have some kind of passive income rolling in...you, on the other hand, would be working for much of the day, and your husband would take on a tremendous burden (for a laundry list of reasons).
In my experience, those who treat Korea as a temporary, flight-of-fancy, deliberately sought culture shock experience are usually, to put it bluntly, completely unattached. Even then, the logistics of coming over proves to be difficulty for many. Your situation is far more complex than that of the just-graduated college kid, whom most recruiters will seek out to fill first-time gigs. I mean, if I were running an academy, who would be the more attractive candidate: the young, unattached single whose expectations consist of nothing more than a stable salary and a roof over his/her head, or the family of four whose needs and attendant demands are greater (a one-room studio or a 2-3 bedroom apartment for my teacher...hmm...)?
I still cannot see how this would turn out well. If I were you, I would err toward the side of caution: your decisions directly affect more lives than just your own. |
I'm not entirely disagreeing with you, but as a married woman with a child I have to say that I'm pretty sure I got my current job and my last job over other candidates because I was married and had a child. I think I was seen as stable, unlikely to come in drunk or create a negative image for my schools. My Korean co-workers absolutely love me, my husband and my son. I think most of them (older Koreans in their 30's to 40's) find it much easier to relate to me because we have similar experiences, married, settled, raising children. My first job in Korea was before I had my son (he was born while I was in that job and my first boss and her husband are the godparents). My boss told me later after we had become friends that she hired me over several other applicants because I sent her pictures of my husband and I hiking etc. so she figured I was more stable than a younger teacher. We also brought a 70 lb dog with us and a cat.
So again, I agree with a lot of what you're saying, I'm just pointing out that if you do good research it is possible to find jobs where having a family is an asset. |
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