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Carbon
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
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 Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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Apologist accepted.
I don't know what herd you were brought up in, but if you try to jump in front of me and I will stop you, just like every other rude individual that tries, regardless of what you think is right.
When in Rome, act civil. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Carbon wrote: |
Apologist accepted.
I don't know what herd you were brought up in, but if you try to jump in front of me and I will stop you, just like every other rude individual that tries, regardless of what you think is right.
When in Rome, act civil. |
Then, you should have no problem with line jumping for a pack of smokes.
And if you are going to get to the front and not have your money ready, well, that's rude and uncivil.
But rather than this combative, territorial attitude, why not have a cooperative attitude.
So you are delayed by 2 seconds. That other person saves close to a minute. I think it's worth 2 seconds of my life to be nice to someone else and get them on their merry way.
Remember the person doesn't have to be Korea, or an ajosshi, or a smoker.
It can be a nice cute girl paying a buck for a can of Diet Coke.
Now are you going to be as combative towards her?
And if not, is it about the rule or is it about the person?
If I see someone running in for a thing of baby wipes and looking "in a bind", I have no problem if they cut.
Give and take, give and take. No reason not to be flexible and take things one at a time?
And yeah if you're at Wendy's and are staring at the menu after having spent the last 3 minutes in line yaking on your phone. Darn right I should be able to cut in front and get my $1 Frosty. Having a spot in line doesn't make it okay to be rude in other ways. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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And some people I know wonder why I consider smoking to be a selfish habit. I no longer have to explain my position. All I have to do is show them this thread.
Another thing, most people I know would have no problem whatsoever with someone asking to cut in line if all they need is one thing. The issue here is the selfishness, the lack of good manners, evidenced by those all too many who simply walk in and cut in line without even an "excuse me."
You may now cue the apologists who want to explain away the reason why they aren't polite and even how what they're doing isn't really rude anyway. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Say what you will, the people who tend to not have their money ready or to stare stupidly at the menu even when they've had minutes to get their order ready tend to be non-smokers and"Square" types.
Something about smokers being driven by addiction, compulsion, and habit makes them prone to having their stuff ready. "Gotta get my smokes ASAP....Gotta get my Ribwich ASAP..."
Likewise, the entitlement and "disbelief of own guilt" complex some non-smokers have leads to the whole dawdling in line.
I ask again, why is it so rude for a smoker to cut to the front and pay exact change for a pack of cigs in 2 seconds, but some non-smoker can not have their cash ready or stare at the candy or chit-chat and its impolite yes, but nothing that warrants a rant? Who has cost you more time? Who is being more selfish? |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| Another thing, most people I know would have no problem whatsoever with someone asking to cut in line if all they need is one thing. The issue here is the selfishness, the lack of good manners, evidenced by those all too many who simply walk in and cut in line without even an "excuse me." |
+1 for emphasis. It's not what you're doing, it's how you're doing it. It's not even a language barrier issue because eye contact is so rarely made in simple public interactions here.
Jesus Steelrails, if you're constantly having experiences like that with crappy customers while waiting for a single pack of cigs, you need to relocate. I very rarely am only buying a pack of smokes and find myself behind an idiot customer in line. The idiots usually make themselves known when I forgot to grab a basket and am hugging a pile of beers. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Say what you will, the people who tend to not have their money ready or to stare stupidly at the menu even when they've had minutes to get their order ready tend to be non-smokers and"Square" types. |
This makes absolutely no sense to me.
Non-smokers are squares now, eh?
Gotta ask, man - have you ever been around a lung cancer patient?
-------------
And as to all of your small town store explanations... Well, I live in Seoul. Have never lived in a small town in Korea. And generally avoid the mom and pop shops.... Yet I still see this line jumping by older Korean men.
So you can try to explain it away all you like, but you truly are sounding like you're grasping. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimchifart wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| radcon wrote: |
| If your group of friends engage in any activity you can't stand, you must either endure the behavior or find new friends. Don't whine and try to change them. |
This. I smoke when I drink. If there's galbi and a bottle of soju around, I'm going to smoke. My friends and coworkers recognize this and deal with it. If the smoke is blowing in their faces, I'm going to switch places, but if I'm out with my buddy for dinner and it's just him and I, I'm not going to leave the table every time I want to have a smoke. |
I bet many of them secretly resent you and bitch about you. |
You really think so? So, when there are four of us hanging out at a non-smokers apartment, two smokers and two non-smokers, and the other smoker and I pop out onto the landing for a smoke every hour or so, is it resentment that brings the non-smoker to tell us to just smoke out of his window? Because this happens every time we hang out. With the group of people I hang out with, I generally get scolded for getting up and leaving to smoke. I guess they're just a hell of a lot more relaxed than you (or they just really appreciate my company).
And as another poster mentioned: worrying about what my friends secretly think about me is serious insecurity. They're my friends: if they have a problem, they can voice it, and we can adjust accordingly. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I've had guys try to line jump me in the past. The key word is try. |
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Feloria
Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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Try is right--they either back up or feel an elbow in their gut  |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Jesus Steelrails, if you're constantly having experiences like that with crappy customers while waiting for a single pack of cigs, you need to relocate. I very rarely am only buying a pack of smokes and find myself behind an idiot customer in line. The idiots usually make themselves known when I forgot to grab a basket and am hugging a pile of beers. |
No its not a constant experience, probably only 5% of times I've bought a pack of smokes. But over the course of a year that's fairly frequently. For the a pack a day smoker that's around 18 times a year. A low probability of occurring, but not a rare occurrence. Now times that over 10 years of smoking...
Now again, I'm not denying the selfish ajosshi problem. I've had it happen too, and I've made it clear as well.
But this is about smokers, not ajosshis. Now back home, this would happen as well at the corner store.
I suspect this differs based on what kind of corner store you go to. If it's more of a corner store-deli with a more middle class clientele purchasing things by car, yeah a more rigid approach. If you it's in a more "urban" (man I hate that word) setting with foot traffic, people being neighborly and running into friends, brillo pads on the front counter, and the Cognac behind the counter is the closest booze to the register, then yeah, more likely to have people do the in-n-out and grab a quick pack or a loosey while someone else is chatting up the dude or playing the numbers.
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This makes absolutely no sense to me.
Non-smokers are squares now, eh?
Gotta ask, man - have you ever been around a lung cancer patient? |
Yeah, a smoker too. And? I've been around small kids with tumors and health nuts who died young.
Obviously that part about people in line was not meant to be taken too seriously. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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Mind throwing in some "smilies" or something then. I mean, if I was to read this thread as it stands, I'd think you were taking the piss through this whole thing...and that you viewed it all as a joke.
So, honestly, how am i supposed to discern that you're joking at that one point, but not in all of your previous ones? |
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Carbon
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 10:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I ask again, why is it so rude for a smoker to cut to the front and pay exact change for a pack of cigs in 2 seconds, but some non-smoker can not have their cash ready or stare at the candy or chit-chat and its impolite yes, but nothing that warrants a rant? Who has cost you more time? Who is being more selfish? |
It's called taking and waiting for your turn. Civility is the keyword here; first come, first serve. A line means just that; those who came before and after you. I really wanted to avoid the whole issue of Koreans doing this, but I guess there is grounds too at this point. You are Gyopo ( I believe it is relevant here) who vigilantly (read: mindlessly) defends even the most obvious affronts to place and order (the 'bargaining culture', 'nothing is absolute' - thing [let's not get into how many Koreans regard employment contracts, but it has the same roots]), we are in Korea and I have never once in all of my years here had a foreigner jump in front of me, muscle me out of the way on a subway, storm into the elevator before I can get out or engage in herding around a ticket window or cash register. It is always Koreans, and not limited to ajoshis; all ages, from kids to grandmothers move in front of me like I am not even there. Oddly enough, when I do bring to their attention that I was there first, they seem genuinely surprised like they honestly didn't see me. Odd.
Your defense of this is insane denial because each and every poster on this forum, each and every foreigner and Korean (though they may not even really notice it to the same degree) has had this happen and I would wager within the last few days. We have all seen it, had it happen to us and accept it as part of the "things I don't like, but gotta live with" Korean experience. If we took everyone to task or even continued to care every time something like this happened, we would be in prison or a funny farm.
All of your lame conditions - "exact change" and whatnot - represent the typical broken rationalizations in a country that has no sense of group dynamics or cohesive, consistent, coherent group behavior. If you want to push this point, let's get into the whole "keep right" thing that is part of the 10 subway etiquette rules that are being pushed on every LCD screen in the stations these days. I swear, the more they ask people here to do something, the more they ignore it. Trying to follow the rules in this country is incredibly hard because nobody else does it. It becomes easier to engage in the typical anarchy that pervades Korean streets, subways stations and malls. Anywhere there is human traffic, the complete and utter abandonment of group dynamics becomes painfully obvious. What you are doing is simply rationalizing crappy behavior, nothing more. Read up on the price of anarchy and, if you can take off your rose-colored glasses or unwrap the flag that is around your head - whichever is most accurate - see the correlations. At the expense of everyone (including themselves), everyone does only what they want.
Koreans see rules as a kind of flexible thing; note them when you like, disregard them when you like. I, and many others, see some rules as necessary to ensure general harmony and a smooth functioning public infrastructure. Korea was ranked 101 in a recent world "happiness" poll (no link, sorry; I saw it on KBS). I propose that one of the reasons people aren't happy is because they take every opportunity - so it seems - to disregard each others' existence. Bumping, crowding, shoving, cue jumping; everything is a contest or competition, even getting out the subway doors first! Ajumas will approach the subway door they want to enter through and plop down their bags (securing their place) then go and sit on the bench. Everything is a competition here (Korea Fighting!). The recent thread about K-Pop: "We will conquer the world"; the same defensive, competitive behavior reflected in the words they choose.
This is not a "small country" thing; Japan, for example, is quite mindful of personal space when they can. Yes, the subways are hyper-crowded, etc, but I was never pushed, jostled, bumped or otherwise diminished there. They have respect for personal space and order.
This has turned into a much longer and deeper rant than I wanted, but get your head out of your butt here steelrails. You aren't convincing anyone of anything besides the fact that you will defend this place at the expense of your own credibility. Keep your silly rationalizations and sell them to the tourists. I have been here too long and have been to too many other countries where my person and personal space are actually regarded by strangers to listen to your crap anymore.
I am not bashing Korea, but I am also not blind to some of the things that bother me here. This is my home and only a fool would stay somewhere they hate, and I am not that fool. This particular issue however, is one that you are forcing through your senseless denial, so don't come back with any 'K-basher' nonsense. I have just as many complaints about other countries I have visited and lived in and even about many foreigners in Korea, but that isn't the topic. |
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diver
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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So apparently smokers are the only people who have their money ready. Everyone else does not? Where are the Lion and the Tinman, Scarecrow?
Here is another problem with your logic. When I am in line, I have my product and my wallet in hand. Do smokers? Nope. Cigarettes are behind the counter. You are actually NOT ready to make your purchase. Backa da line, jackass!
It's not really about a Korean manners thing (well, okay it is...) BUT, it is only smokers that do this. I've never had a Korean cut in front of me to buy other stuff, just cigarettes. They cut in front of me when they walk, when they drive and when they do just about everything else...but in the store - just the smokers.
To be fair, it HAS gotten better than when I first arrived. In '95 I think doctors used to smoke in the OR... |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:04 am Post subject: |
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I was worried this might start to devolve into another "personal space/public awareness" thread - the one thing that I will without hesitation gripe about when it comes to Korea. Get your face out of your phone, look up instead of at the ground, don't bob around or suddenly do a 180 and shoot off in another direction, give some leeway in narrow corridors.
Experience. It. Every. Single. Day.
But whew, Carbon pretty much nailed it.
diver: I've had my fair share of small order peeps who weren't buying cigs weasel in front of me.
Yesterday, I was waiting in line for cigs (with exact change! waiting!) and this guy behind me actually went around me and attempted to put his crap on the counter. Only after realizing that someone was currently being rung up and taking up all the counter space did he give up on the endeavor, though he briefly fidgeted, toying with the idea of waiting behind them instead of me.
The other night, I popped into the local for a pack of smokes. The lady working was in the back prepping some meat (the store is also a small butcher). There are eggs on the counter, and one dude is digging through the tofu. I wait at the counter patiently for the lady to come back up front. She thinks the eggs are mine and asks, and right at that time, tofu guy runs up and says they're his. The meat is as well, so he proceeds to jump right up and get rung up.
Shit gets old... |
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radcon
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| Sightly off topic but in a similar vein. I live near a Costco so I often go in to buy one or two items as I need them: milk,bread, whatnot. So I get in line with my one item. The cart in front of me has a mountain of crap. Not once in probably 100 times has anyone offered to let me get my one item wrung up ahead of them. Not once. And I know they see I have only one item because they do the "what is the foreigner buying" gawking. But you know what, I just cant bring myself to cut in front of them. |
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