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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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I'm not entirely sold on the argument that uniforms prevent violence. There was plenty of violence in my schools with the uniforms. According to the media, its still pretty rampant.
Also maybe if parents instilled a sense of individuality in their kids, they wouldn't give into peer pressure and have to buy trendy clothes. I never asked for trendy clothes as a kid because I didn't give a damn about what's popular. I actually had my own style.
| Times30 wrote: |
This country is one of the safest places to raise a kid.
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As a kid, I did not feel that way. |
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Times30
Joined: 27 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Thiuda wrote: |
| Times30 wrote: |
| Culture is culture. Let's not act like barbarians and be under the assumption one is better than the other. |
Some cultures are quite obviously better than others. While certain societies consider stoning rape victims good practice, others believe universal literacy a goal woth working towards. One of these societies is better than the other, because more people lead happy and productive lives in one type of culture than the other. An extreme example, certainly, but the point is that some aspects of Korean culture can be criticized for decreasing human well-being.
| Quote: |
| This country is one of the safest places to raise a kid. |
I think cultures in which traffic laws are adhered to more consistently are safer: http://www.koreaheral./national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20090908000032 |
[/quote]
Again that's a matter of perspective. Values in and of themselves are subjective. Happiness and "productivity" are values. If someone does not value them, then they are meaningless in your example. In addition, using your own example, stoning a rape victim in their society has a value attached to it. I don't know enough about what culture you're talking about (and giving you the benefit of the doubt that this is the whole story) but every culture has a reason behind why they do things. Because we don't understand it doesn't mean it's any better or worse than ours. Notice how people tend to put value on their own cultures the most as being the "best".
This is what we call a bias. Most of us consider cannibalism to be obscene but study the culture and you find that it's a deterrence from crime, a way to punish the vagrants of society, promote peace, and ultimately save calories if food is scarce. From a utilitarian standpoint it's one of the most ultimate cultural methods.
There are unlimited examples, some cultures share wives, others share husbands... to us it seems barbaric or "disgusting" but that's only because you're limited in frame of mind for what values you have. Even the example of stoning rape victims may have a use. I don't know the culture well enough, but it may encourage women to actively want to prevent rape. Who knows, maybe in past history women used "I was raped" as a way to escape consequences of infidelity. So now it's come to stoning by death. Do you know enough about the culture to understand why it exists?
OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT VALUES. GET OVER IT.
As for Korea being a safe country for kids, the comparison may be because I'm from America. Sure there is fear of pedophiles, kidnappers, murderers, and cars. But to a large degree from what I see, kids roam free even at like 12:00 at night. Kids shuffle to and from hagwons everyday and most of the culture is orientated to working and educating their kids.
If your values are NOT towards education, then obviously this isn't a country to raise your kids. It's a matter of perspective. But saying that Korea is a "bad" place to raise a kid brings up a lot of questionable judgement as to why that is so, without reasonable assertions that support the claim. |
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Feloria
Joined: 02 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:01 am Post subject: |
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As far as school uniforms go--
I went to a Catholic school 1st-8th grade.
1st-4th grade, there were school uniforms, but they got rid of them when I started 5th grade.
That's when the teasing and bullying started. My family was one of the poorer families, and my parents couldn't afford the trendy clothes that were in fashion back then. Most of my fellow classmates came from pretty "well to do" families, and it really showed. My mom would try and get the "imitation stuff", but of course that only made the teasing worse.
The worst part is that some of the kids who treated me the worst were ones I got along with fine with or was even friends with when we were in third and fourth grade.
This is just my story, but I'm all for student uniforms. |
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nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:32 am Post subject: |
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The whole debate is ridiculous. Values don't (or shouldn't) come from school; they come from your family and friends. Criminals associate with criminals because they share common values. People go to college and value an education because their parents went to college, or their parents valued education. Kids are bullies because their parents are bullies, or their parents fail to instill any other values in them.
People bemoan the state of western education, but the fact is I got a lot out of it. Plenty of classmates dropped out, are in prison, some even dead, and we all went through the same stuff. The difference was in the values and ethos my parents instilled in me. And don't try to play the "you're a privileged white guy" card - plenty of minorities I grew up with came from poor, disadvantaged families and their families instilled strong values and work ethic in them and they succeeded.
Korea as a society is failing in this regard because parents don't take responsibility for their children. I don't respect people because of age or status, but because they deserve it. The worst thing my father ever said to me was "I'm disappointed in you." In Korea, parents expect the school to handle the children and they don't pass on values. Then the schools have their hands tied and the parents don't do anything.
I could raise children anywhere, and they would behave well anywhere - not because of the school system, not because of the society, but because I would be an active parent. |
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motiontodismiss
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:51 am Post subject: |
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| Times30 wrote: |
If your values are NOT towards education, then obviously this isn't a country to raise your kids. It's a matter of perspective. But saying that Korea is a "bad" place to raise a kid brings up a lot of questionable judgement as to why that is so, without reasonable assertions that support the claim. |
Koreans so-called "value" education but nobody studies when they get to college and Korea hasn't won a Nobel Prize in any academic discipline. I value education pretty highly and it's PRECISELY the reason I think Korea' a terrible place to raise children. Education expands way beyond rote memorization and classroom learning, and Korean schools don't teach things like critical thinking. Not toe mention the fact that Koreans study everything in the most boring and time consuming way that is humanly possible. Korean students lose interest in learning at about age 8, when they're already shuttling from hagwon to hagwon until 10PM.
That said, if you value education, Finland, where education is free through college and the teachers lock the students out of the building during recess, not Korea, is the place to raise kids. You don't have a burgeoning hagwon industry in Finland and that's because the public education system does its job and is not a complete clusterfuck like in Korea. I honestly think a vast majority of Korean teachers need to be fired with extreme prejudice. How can you possibly inspire little Minsoo when you yourself lost any interest in learning when you were his age? |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Times30 wrote: |
Again that's a matter of perspective. Values in and of themselves are subjective. Happiness and "productivity" are values. If someone does not value them, then they are meaningless in your example. In addition, using your own example, stoning a rape victim in their society has a value attached to it. I don't know enough about what culture you're talking about (and giving you the benefit of the doubt that this is the whole story) but every culture has a reason behind why they do things. Because we don't understand it doesn't mean it's any better or worse than ours. Notice how people tend to put value on their own cultures the most as being the "best".
This is what we call a bias. Most of us consider cannibalism to be obscene but study the culture and you find that it's a deterrence from crime, a way to punish the vagrants of society, promote peace, and ultimately save calories if food is scarce. From a utilitarian standpoint it's one of the most ultimate cultural methods.
There are unlimited examples, some cultures share wives, others share husbands... to us it seems barbaric or "disgusting" but that's only because you're limited in frame of mind for what values you have. Even the example of stoning rape victims may have a use. I don't know the culture well enough, but it may encourage women to actively want to prevent rape. Who knows, maybe in past history women used "I was raped" as a way to escape consequences of infidelity. So now it's come to stoning by death. Do you know enough about the culture to understand why it exists?
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And do you know it well enough to defend it? No. You even admitted you don't.
Let's see... stoning to death vs. not stoning to death... ah whatever, it's pretty much the same thing. Neither choice is better than the other. Right.
Cultural and moral relativism at its finest.
Yes, stoning has a "use." It's often used to kill women or young girls who were raped or even had regular sex. It's part of the honor killing culture and it isn't limited to just stones; they often use knives too. There you go. Now you can defend it in a more knowledgeable way. There is a lot of "value" attached to the practice. I don't know how they'd get along without it.
And you've also helped me eliminate my bias against cannibalism. I now see it also has a "use". Now I'm going to go eat my neighbor because I need some calories and food is scarce in my apartment. But don't judge me, it's my culture. And culture is culture.
Oh wait, we were talking about perms and school uniforms. My bad...
Last edited by Mix1 on Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:39 am; edited 2 times in total |
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myenglishisno
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Geumchon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| Times30 wrote: |
Schools are getting more and more deep into "student" rights. I'm all for respectful treatment of students but this is highly lacking in any discipline at all. Even western schools have limits to certain attire such as skirts, flip flops, etc. While not as harsh, we end up with a slippery slope of what is acceptable and what isn't... and even more giving more power to the students rather than teachers.
It's hard enough trying to discipline kids with our hands tied by complaining parents, but I think this is too much.
Hair is hair, fashion is fashion, but there the reasons they exist is to emphasize education. This is school, this isn't a runway. It CAN be distracting to sit behind someone with bright white hair while trying to watch the board. |
All the rules at Western schools were made after the fact (there was no miniskirt rule until someone wore a miniskirt).
They have no idea what kids are going to do so they need to see first before they make any rules. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:07 pm Post subject: |
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| motiontodismiss wrote: |
| Times30 wrote: |
If your values are NOT towards education, then obviously this isn't a country to raise your kids. It's a matter of perspective. But saying that Korea is a "bad" place to raise a kid brings up a lot of questionable judgement as to why that is so, without reasonable assertions that support the claim. |
Koreans so-called "value" education but nobody studies when they get to college and Korea hasn't won a Nobel Prize in any academic discipline. I value education pretty highly and it's PRECISELY the reason I think Korea' a terrible place to raise children. Education expands way beyond rote memorization and classroom learning, and Korean schools don't teach things like critical thinking. Not toe mention the fact that Koreans study everything in the most boring and time consuming way that is humanly possible. Korean students lose interest in learning at about age 8, when they're already shuttling from hagwon to hagwon until 10PM.
That said, if you value education, Finland, where education is free through college and the teachers lock the students out of the building during recess, not Korea, is the place to raise kids. You don't have a burgeoning hagwon industry in Finland and that's because the public education system does its job and is not a complete clusterfuck like in Korea. I honestly think a vast majority of Korean teachers need to be fired with extreme prejudice. How can you possibly inspire little Minsoo when you yourself lost any interest in learning when you were his age? |
It is very unlikely that a lot of Korean teachers ( certainly those under 40) went to hakwons. Private education was banned in 1980 and it wasn't until the 1990's that the ban was finally ruled unconstitutional. Plus there were far far less hakwons then than now. Most of the younger teachers I talk to say they never went to hakwons when they were growing up. Sure someone who just graduated from teacher's college may have but those with a few years under their belts are unlikely. |
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myenglishisno
Joined: 08 Mar 2011
Location: Geumchon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
It is very unlikely that a lot of Korean teachers ( certainly those under 40) went to hakwons. Private education was banned in 1980 and it wasn't until the 1990's that the ban was finally ruled unconstitutional. Plus there were far far fewer hakwons then than now. Most of the younger teachers I talk to say they never went to hakwons when they were growing up. Sure someone who just graduated from teacher's college may have but those with a few years under their belts are unlikely. |
Fixed that for you. |
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Thiuda
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
Location: Religion ist f�r Sklaven geschaffen, f�r Wesen ohne Geist.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Times30 wrote: |
| Thiuda wrote: |
| Times30 wrote: |
| Culture is culture. Let's not act like barbarians and be under the assumption one is better than the other. |
Some cultures are quite obviously better than others. While certain societies consider stoning rape victims good practice, others believe universal literacy a goal woth working towards. One of these societies is better than the other, because more people lead happy and productive lives in one type of culture than the other. An extreme example, certainly, but the point is that some aspects of Korean culture can be criticized for decreasing human well-being.
[quoLte]This country is one of the safest places to raise a kid. |
I think cultures in which traffic laws are adhered to more consistently are safer: http://www.koreaheral./national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20090908000032 |
| Times30 wrote: |
Again that's a matter of perspective. Values in and of themselves are subjective. Happiness and "productivity" are values. If someone does not value them, then they are meaningless in your example. In addition, using your own example, stoning a rape victim in their society has a value attached to it. I don't know enough about what culture you're talking about (and giving you the benefit of the doubt that this is the whole story) but every culture has a reason behind why they do things. Because we don't understand it doesn't mean it's any better or worse than ours. Notice how people tend to put value on their own cultures the most as being the "best".
This is what we call a bias. Most of us consider cannibalism to be obscene but study the culture and you find that it's a deterrence from crime, a way to punish the vagrants of society, promote peace, and ultimately save calories if food is scarce. From a utilitarian standpoint it's one of the most ultimate cultural methods.
There are unlimited examples, some cultures share wives, others share husbands... to us it seems barbaric or "disgusting" but that's only because you're limited in frame of mind for what values you have. Even the example of stoning rape victims may have a use. I don't know the culture well enough, but it may encourage women to actively want to prevent rape. Who knows, maybe in past history women used "I was raped" as a way to escape consequences of infidelity. So now it's come to stoning by death. Do you know enough about the culture to understand why it exists?
OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT VALUES. GET OVER IT.
As for Korea being a safe country for kids, the comparison may be because I'm from America. Sure there is fear of pedophiles, kidnappers, murderers, and cars. But to a large degree from what I see, kids roam free even at like 12:00 at night. Kids shuffle to and from hagwons everyday and most of the culture is orientated to working and educating their kids.
If your values are NOT towards education, then obviously this isn't a country to raise your kids. It's a matter of perspective. But saying that Korea is a "bad" place to raise a kid brings up a lot of questionable judgement as to why that is so, without reasonable assertions that support the claim. |
Post-modern, relativist drivel. You not only defend the practice of cannibalism on utilitarian grounds, but consider stoning victims of rape acceptable. Using your arguments one could defend slavery, female circumcision, or child marriages, all of which are cultural practices that infringe on a humans right to a life of dignity, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness - the same rights, coincidentally, enshrined in the UN's Universal Decleartion of Human Rights.
Learn to think independently and critically, and try to move beyond your very skewed worldview.[/quote]
Last edited by Thiuda on Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fosterman
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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"Seoul education chief Kwak No-hyun announced"
want to bet the next chief or the one after will put it back to how it was, and also bring back corporal punishment.
this will get way out of control and some conservative will get in power and bring it back to how it was, and he will get the blessing of mothers. |
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