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Korean Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
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john152
Joined: 26 May 2011
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catman

Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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Good lord. I thought this was from the Onion.  |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Posted: Sat Feb 25, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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the judge is saying its been manipulated. not sure who to believe. looks pretty bad though. |
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The Cosmic Hum

Joined: 09 May 2003 Location: Sonic Space
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:07 am Post subject: |
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Obviously, the judge will post that he has mental illness soon enough.
Hard to believe someone could keep their job after a clown act like that. |
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Squire

Joined: 26 Sep 2010 Location: Jeollanam-do
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:33 am Post subject: |
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I expect this type of BS in the UK. It would be sad if the US also became as 'liberal' as we have |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Prosecutor: "Your Honor, this defendant brutally attacked and killed the victim. We demand justice."
Judge: "What do you have to say for yourself my good man (and fellow group member).
Defendant: "I didn't like his face."
Judge: "Sounds good to me. Case dismissed. You are free to go."
Solution: This kind of animal (the judge) should be removed from the bench and the legal profession. |
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Adventurer

Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:24 am Post subject: |
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Assaulting anyone for any reason if the person has not physically threatened you should lead to the incarceration of the said individual. Another judge should look at this, and the judge in question shouldn't be a judge anymore. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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Adventurer wrote: |
Assaulting anyone for any reason if the person has not physically threatened you should lead to the incarceration of the said individual. Another judge should look at this, and the judge in question shouldn't be a judge anymore. |
There is something called "the law of the street". It exists in England and the USA both. A jury can consider an acquital in assualt cases if the assaulter has been humiliated by the person he assualted. I have seen acquittals on this before and I think in many cases the acquittal was justified. You have to be careful about how you act around people and what you say to people. Although I think the reason that the judge gave for acquitting the assualter in this particular case is pretty unacceptable. It does sound like the judge is using Sharia law. This is pretty weird. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject: |
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young_clinton wrote: |
You have to be careful about how you act around people and what you say to people. Although I think the reason that the judge gave for acquitting the assualter in this particular case is pretty unacceptable. It does sound like the judge is using Sharia law. This is pretty weird. |
This case is just a logical extension of the level of misplaced multiculturalism that society already accepts. When the infamous Danish Muhammad cartoons were published, the publishers were scolded for publishing something that "they should have known" would provoke violence from those quirky Muslims. This is the same thing, wrapped up in a more personal package.
Maybe soon we'll be excusing rapists because she "should have known" what that provocative outfit would result in. |
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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Location: Earth, Solar System
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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This is why duels should be allowed (and were allowed). People who felt their honor was insulted could challenge someone to a duel. In theory, this made sure that before people said something truly insulting they'd think about it or risk death in a duel or at least shame by refusing to answer the challenge.
You really shouldn't mock people's religion like that. If its wrong to gay bash or say racist or sexist things, then you should leave religion as well. Yes, yes, I know you people are going to say, "I think you should be able to mock anything as false and superstitious and shouldn't have to show respect". Fine, but don't whine and come crying when that person decks you in the mouth and makes you eat dirt.
I do think there are "fighting words" and "fighting actions" and free speech doesn't give you the right to moon me, insult my religion and ethnicity, and then cry and sue me if I kick your butt.
I mean those of us who are condemning this, how would we react if some Korean person was wearing some bigoted costume and saying bigoted things and some NET decked them? There would be cheers. And what if the Korean court said, well based on American culture, that guy was justified? We'd be rejoicing. How is this any different? What because its Muslims and we're sick and tired of them being in the news? What if it was a KKK rally and the guy was dressed like sambo? Would we have the same reaction? But to me, it seems like all those different examples would all be the same.
At the same time we have to have free speech and self control. After all, the marketplace of ideas is best when you have broad free speech.
The big issue here isn't the law or using sharia law. The big issue is custom and manners. People need to have better manners when sharing competing ideas. Parades and cartoons are just juvenile. We used to discuss things with substantive debate, works of literature (not NYTimes books), poetry, substantive journal columns. Now its shock value.
I guess that's where I come down. I'm for free speech. You can say some utterly nasty things. But I'm not for the limitless protection of shock value. At some point, you're asking for it and if someone gives it, then you get no sympathy. Fight each other if you have to, but don't come whining and crying because you love to dish it out but can't take it. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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Steelrails wrote: |
I mean those of us who are condemning this, how would we react if some Korean person was wearing some bigoted costume and saying bigoted things and some NET decked them? There would be cheers. And what if the Korean court said, well based on American culture, that guy was justified? We'd be rejoicing. How is this any different? What because its Muslims and we're sick and tired of them being in the news? What if it was a KKK rally and the guy was dressed like sambo? Would we have the same reaction? But to me, it seems like all those different examples would all be the same. |
bullsh**
Violence is never an acceptable response to speech any more than rape is an acceptable response to provocative clothing. If you're blowing a gasket over something someone is saying, that is 100% your problem. Speak back, yell at them, argue with them and call them every name in the book if that makes you feel better... but in the end, your emotions are YOUR problem.
And yes, I'd gladly intervene to prevent violence against someone actively insulting me. If you've heard the phrase "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" it's because some of us actually believe it. |
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The Cosmic Hum

Joined: 09 May 2003 Location: Sonic Space
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Posted: Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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Steelrails wrote: |
The big issue here isn't the law or using sharia law. The big issue is custom and manners. |
Actually, the big issue here is the law and sharia law.
While many might agree that in general people should have better manners, religious beliefs should not supersede the law.
The times have changed, and most logical thinking people are not going to be persuaded into allowing religious beliefs to regain the abusive power they once held over the common person...believers or not.
Equating racism to freedom from religious beliefs is a bad analogy.
People have no control over the color of their skin.
If someone is born black/white/red/yellow/etc..they don't have to believe in anything to maintain that physical feature. |
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Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009 Location: Earth, Solar System
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:00 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
bullsh**
Violence is never an acceptable response to speech any more than rape is an acceptable response to provocative clothing. If you're blowing a gasket over something someone is saying, that is 100% your problem. Speak back, yell at them, argue with them and call them every name in the book if that makes you feel better... but in the end, your emotions are YOUR problem. |
Yes and no. There's this kind of speech called harassment. Do you believe in the right of harassment?
However there is a fine line between free speech and harassment. People have the right to their opinions, but people have the right to be free from harassment. I'd say that this case, it was free speech, but could very well have turned into harassment. If at any point the person in the costume started to mock individuals in the crowd then it would turn from a display into harassment.
If someone is harassing you, I feel perfectly well that you have the right to deck them. They forfeited their right by engaging in harassment.
Again, there's a fine line between shocking and aggressive (but no harassing) political speech and harassment. I think it might be hard to define it and come down, to paraphrase Potter Stewart, "I know it when I hear it." and be up to the officer responding and the courts to decide.
However in practice, especially on the street, your naive attitude will only end up in you getting marked. And I think our "fighting words" criteria takes such things into account. You do not have carte blanche to run your mouth and people don't have to take it.
I believe in the right of you to say whatever you want and not get in trouble for it. I also believe that if you cross the line and a private citizen blasts you in the mouth that they may or may not have to go to jail, depending on the opinion of the peace officer or the judge or the jury.
I certainly don't approve of that person who gets decked saying they're a "victim". If anything they were a bully and suffered a bully's fate. If someone is teasing a kid nonstop for some silly reason and that kid finally has enough and clocks the kid, did that bully not have it coming?
Turn the other cheek, but there's a point....
Course on the street there are people who just don't give a hoot. So it would be wise not to run one's mouth.
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Actually, the big issue here is the law and sharia law.
While many might agree that in general people should have better manners, religious beliefs should not supersede the law.
The times have changed, and most logical thinking people are not going to be persuaded into allowing religious beliefs to regain the abusive power they once held over the common person...believers or not.
Equating racism to freedom from religious beliefs is a bad analogy.
People have no control over the color of their skin.
If someone is born black/white/red/yellow/etc..they don't have to believe in anything to maintain that physical feature. |
What about in the case of Jews where religion is intertwined with ethnicity? If I walked around with some big fake schnoz and a hasidic wig and held some scales and every other bad Jewish image, would it be wrong for some Jewish guy to sock me in the face? Should it be illegal?
Fine, call it illegal. If I was judge I'd send the guy to jail for 1 second and fine them 1 cent. Then I'd expunge it from their record. People would get their law, but there'd still be justice.
Really, you don't mock people's religion. Even if you think it's not worthy of respect, you still respect it. If you're going to insult people for that, then you best be prepared to take it. From what I've seen, most people aren't. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011 Location: Here
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:02 am Post subject: |
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comm wrote: |
Steelrails wrote: |
I mean those of us who are condemning this, how would we react if some Korean person was wearing some bigoted costume and saying bigoted things and some NET decked them? There would be cheers. And what if the Korean court said, well based on American culture, that guy was justified? We'd be rejoicing. How is this any different? What because its Muslims and we're sick and tired of them being in the news? What if it was a KKK rally and the guy was dressed like sambo? Would we have the same reaction? But to me, it seems like all those different examples would all be the same. |
bullsh**
Violence is never an acceptable response to speech any more than rape is an acceptable response to provocative clothing. If you're blowing a gasket over something someone is saying, that is 100% your problem. Speak back, yell at them, argue with them and call them every name in the book if that makes you feel better... but in the end, your emotions are YOUR problem.
And yes, I'd gladly intervene to prevent violence against someone actively insulting me. If you've heard the phrase "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" it's because some of us actually believe it. |
I don't believe it. It's bad manners. Like communism, it's good on paper but completely ignores human psychology and reality.
Guy made a Mom joke to me the other year. He was from the US, maybe it's ok there but English guys DO NOT LIKE THAT.
After telling him I don't like it, he kept on, making really filthy sexual references and including my Mum in them. Gave him a beating. Was lucky I had been drinking and gambling without sleep for the previous 72 hours and on my last legs, or he would have ended up in hopsital. As it was he got away with some lame arse punches being landed that just bruised him up a bit.
I should add, we met that night through a mutual friend. You just do not go that personal with strangers, joke or not, it's just not funny. I nearly started a fight this weekend when another friend did the Mum joke thing too. Had we just met and he had iognored me stating several times that I don't like it and to stopit, again, I'd have attacked him, at least grabbed his throat and squeezed until he got the message. I kinda let him off though as I rib him for looking gay, so fair is fair I guess. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 1:05 am Post subject: |
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Steelrails wrote: |
However there is a fine line between free speech and harassment. People have the right to their opinions, but people have the right to be free from harassment. I'd say that this case, it was free speech, but could very well have turned into harassment. If at any point the person in the costume started to mock individuals in the crowd then it would turn from a display into harassment. |
Very well said. Harassing an individual (with explicit intent) is rightfully illegal. However, "harassing" a concept or idea (including famous/historical figures) is the very heart of free speech. While there may be a line between free speech and harassment, the line between harassment and assault is much more clearly defined.
The Floating World wrote: |
I don't believe it. It's bad manners. Like communism, it's good on paper but completely ignores human psychology and reality. |
You're right, I should have said that I would reject violence against someone insulting a concept, idea or famous figure that I believe in. As Steelrails pointed out, harassment of an individual is unacceptable. |
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