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Skippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon
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 Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:08 am Post subject: |
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Well I think my school is going to bushwack me on this. I want to try out the Saturday (my Sat rate is ok). I could use th extra dosh. Still I hate being not told and not talked to like an adult. I can compromise, the question is can they?
Last edited by Skippy on Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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big_fella1
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| chrisblank wrote: |
| big_fella1 wrote: |
Any employer demanding you work Saturdays is just demanding that you report them to the Labor Board, National Tax Service, National Health Insurance Commission and the National Pension Office.
Any hagwon trying this work on Saturdays nonsense isn't going to be in business much longer.
Game on, lets see them destroy their own industry. |
Are there clouds in your world?
Every student I talk to already has classes on Saturday at a hogwon. Ask any grade 6 elementary - 3rd year high school student.
The only big change will be the younger kids who will need something to do Saturday mornings, hence more hogwon class, and therefore more NET teachers needed. Any school that decides to forgo Saturday classes is going to loose business. |
What is loose business? My trousers became loose when I lost weight. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
[
Actually, most contracts have a clause that allows either party to terminate the contract for any reason or no reason with the appropriate notice.
The employer does not need to provide any warnings or any reason as long as this notice equals or exceeds the 30 days required by labor rules for employers and meets the terms of the contract. The termination is then proper and legal, there is no wrongful termination and the employee has no legal recourse. |
Untrue.
| Quote: |
RESTRICTIONS ON DISMISSALS
Employers cannot dismiss employees without justifiable causes. If dismissed without justifiable causes, an employee can apply for redress to a Labor Relations Commission. Employers may be subject to punishment for any unjustifiable dismissal.
If an employer wants to dismiss his/her workers for managerial reasons, the employer should meet strict conditions and procedures. First of all, the employer should have urgent managerial reasons, make every effort to avoid such dismissal, select those to be dismissed by rational and fair standards, and sincerely consult with the trade union or workers' representatives in advance.
On the other hand, even when an employer dismisses his/her workers for justifiable reasons, the employer must notify the workers concerned of dismissal at least 30 days in advance. Otherwise, the employer should pay the workers 30 days or more of ordinary wages. |
http://www.helplinelaw.com/article/south%20korea/155
Labor laws supersede any contract or any clause that is does not meet the standards set out by said labor laws.
| Quote: |
16. What protection do employees have against wrongful or un-fair dismissal?
An employer cannot dismiss, lay off, suspend or transfer an em-ployee without just cause (
Article 23, LSA
). Just cause is notdefined in the LSA, making its application largely subjective.Generally, it exists in only two circumstances:
Fault attributable to the employee making continuedemployment untenable.
This applies where the employee isguilty of sufficiently grave misconduct making it impossibleto continue the relationship. Court cases have also found itin the following situations:continuous and persistent unsatisfactory performance;criminal or deliberate tortious acts against the em-ployer;serious criminal acts that are not in the line of duty;improper relationships with other employees; andmaterial misrepresentation in the hiring process.Unfitness for work can sometimes be considered to be afault attributable to the employer. This can include diseaseor illness occurring outside the line of duty and completelack of aptitude (although the court is generous to theemployees in its assessment). Although debilitating illnessor injury may in some cases be just cause to dismiss an em-ployee from the payroll, employees taking statutory mater-nity leave and childcare leave are protected (
see Question15, Protected employees
).
Urgent managerial necessity to try and save a failing busi-ness from imminent bankruptcy.
The scope of urgent mana-gerial necessity is also largely undefined (
see Question 17 |
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17484972/South-Korean-Employment-Law-Overview
And here is a copy of the actual labor laws. As noted above Article 23 also states that dismissal shall be for "justifiable reasons"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/12960127/Korean-Labor-Standards-Act-amended-in-2007
EDIT: And here is yet another site which says the same thing.
http://www.koreanlaborlaw.com/basic-legal-requirements-for-dismissal-in-korea/
| Quote: |
1. An employer should have a justifiable reason to dismiss a worker.
Dismissal without a justifiable reason is invalid in Korea. |
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Except you're forgetting to read what I wrote:
| Quote: |
| Actually, most contracts have a clause that allows either party to terminate the contract for any reason or no reason with the appropriate notice. |
You see, dismissing an employee, such as one hired for an indefinite period, or at will, is subject to the labor rules regarding improper dismissal. Likewise, dismissing an employee during the term of an active contract, which in many cases means justifiable immediate dismissal where the 30 day labor rule doesn't apply, is also subject to such labor purview.
However, when a contract has ended, labor has no say. It is accepted and understood that the end of a contract means the end of employment. Labor does not pretend to assert that an employee under contract can claim to continue working after the contract has ended. The last day of a contract period ends the employment.
This end of employment under a contract doesn't depend on the length of the contract: 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, whatever - when the contract ends the job ends. The parties have agreed to this ending date in advance.
Now, when a contract has terms that allow either party to end or terminate the contract, according to specific terms, and one party exercises that provision, the party has ended the contract according to its terms - it is not a breach of contract and it legally changes the length of the contract. The contract therefore has a new legal ending date, and Labor recognizes the end of a contract as the end of employment.
Once the contract has ended, there is no job to be dismissed from.
Many Dave's posters used to claim that an employer cannot legally make deductions from an employee's pay. This was not true.
But an employee can agree at the time of the deduction or in advance, in writing, and the labor rule against deductions has been met. Both agreements are contracts that allow an employer to make deductions that are otherwise not allowed by Labor rules.
Many Dave's posters uses to claim that it was not legal to be an Independent contractor on an E2 visa.
But we now know that it is legal if the contract is properly written and proper legal proceedures are followed.
Now we can see that terminating a contract is not the same as dismissal of an employee. |
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big_fella1
Joined: 08 Dec 2005
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
[
Actually, most contracts have a clause that allows either party to terminate the contract for any reason or no reason with the appropriate notice.
The employer does not need to provide any warnings or any reason as long as this notice equals or exceeds the 30 days required by labor rules for employers and meets the terms of the contract. The termination is then proper and legal, there is no wrongful termination and the employee has no legal recourse. |
Untrue.
| Quote: |
RESTRICTIONS ON DISMISSALS
Employers cannot dismiss employees without justifiable causes. If dismissed without justifiable causes, an employee can apply for redress to a Labor Relations Commission. Employers may be subject to punishment for any unjustifiable dismissal.
If an employer wants to dismiss his/her workers for managerial reasons, the employer should meet strict conditions and procedures. First of all, the employer should have urgent managerial reasons, make every effort to avoid such dismissal, select those to be dismissed by rational and fair standards, and sincerely consult with the trade union or workers' representatives in advance.
On the other hand, even when an employer dismisses his/her workers for justifiable reasons, the employer must notify the workers concerned of dismissal at least 30 days in advance. Otherwise, the employer should pay the workers 30 days or more of ordinary wages. |
http://www.helplinelaw.com/article/south%20korea/155
Labor laws supersede any contract or any clause that is does not meet the standards set out by said labor laws.
| Quote: |
16. What protection do employees have against wrongful or un-fair dismissal?
An employer cannot dismiss, lay off, suspend or transfer an em-ployee without just cause (
Article 23, LSA
). Just cause is notdefined in the LSA, making its application largely subjective.Generally, it exists in only two circumstances:
Fault attributable to the employee making continuedemployment untenable.
This applies where the employee isguilty of sufficiently grave misconduct making it impossibleto continue the relationship. Court cases have also found itin the following situations:continuous and persistent unsatisfactory performance;criminal or deliberate tortious acts against the em-ployer;serious criminal acts that are not in the line of duty;improper relationships with other employees; andmaterial misrepresentation in the hiring process.Unfitness for work can sometimes be considered to be afault attributable to the employer. This can include diseaseor illness occurring outside the line of duty and completelack of aptitude (although the court is generous to theemployees in its assessment). Although debilitating illnessor injury may in some cases be just cause to dismiss an em-ployee from the payroll, employees taking statutory mater-nity leave and childcare leave are protected (
see Question15, Protected employees
).
Urgent managerial necessity to try and save a failing busi-ness from imminent bankruptcy.
The scope of urgent mana-gerial necessity is also largely undefined (
see Question 17 |
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17484972/South-Korean-Employment-Law-Overview
And here is a copy of the actual labor laws. As noted above Article 23 also states that dismissal shall be for "justifiable reasons"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/12960127/Korean-Labor-Standards-Act-amended-in-2007
EDIT: And here is yet another site which says the same thing.
http://www.koreanlaborlaw.com/basic-legal-requirements-for-dismissal-in-korea/
| Quote: |
1. An employer should have a justifiable reason to dismiss a worker.
Dismissal without a justifiable reason is invalid in Korea. |
|
Except you're forgetting to read what I wrote:
| Quote: |
| Actually, most contracts have a clause that allows either party to terminate the contract for any reason or no reason with the appropriate notice. |
You see, dismissing an employee, such as one hired for an indefinite period, or at will, is subject to the labor rules regarding improper dismissal. Likewise, dismissing an employee during the term of an active contract, which in many cases means justifiable immediate dismissal where the 30 day labor rule doesn't apply, is also subject to such labor purview.
However, when a contract has ended, labor has no say. It is accepted and understood that the end of a contract means the end of employment. Labor does not pretend to assert that an employee under contract can claim to continue working after the contract has ended. The last day of a contract period ends the employment.
This end of employment under a contract doesn't depend on the length of the contract: 3 months, 6 months, 1 year, whatever - when the contract ends the job ends. The parties have agreed to this ending date in advance.
Now, when a contract has terms that allow either party to end or terminate the contract, according to specific terms, and one party exercises that provision, the party has ended the contract according to its terms - it is not a breach of contract and it legally changes the length of the contract. The contract therefore has a new legal ending date, and Labor recognizes the end of a contract as the end of employment.
Once the contract has ended, there is no job to be dismissed from.
Many Dave's posters used to claim that an employer cannot legally make deductions from an employee's pay. This was not true.
But an employee can agree at the time of the deduction or in advance, in writing, and the labor rule against deductions has been met. Both agreements are contracts that allow an employer to make deductions that are otherwise not allowed by Labor rules.
Many Dave's posters uses to claim that it was not legal to be an Independent contractor on an E2 visa.
But we now know that it is legal if the contract is properly written and proper legal proceedures are followed.
Now we can see that terminating a contract is not the same as dismissal of an employee. |
Ontheway, the problem for hagwons that follow your line of thinking is that they will normally get trounced when it comes time to front the Labour Board.
The Labour Board is very pro employee, unfortunately most grievances don't make it that far though as the people just decide it's too much trouble and complain on Dave's instead and Koreans believe that signing a contract (i.e. a personal relationship) is much more important than law.
Whilst it might theoretically be possible for an E2 to be an Independent Contractor (IC), I have yet to see a proper contract that would actually hold up, even if the hagwon did the right thing and compensated the employee with cash for the loss of benefits.
The end of Saturday school was announced in July last year.
Source: http://www.pressherald.com/news/nationworld/south-korea-ending-saturday-school_2011-07-03.html
The failure of the hagwons to plan for this is a mystery.
The best advice on this thread I think came from YTMND:
| Quote: |
| Instead of trying to force your employer to treat you nice, like someone trying to keep their spouse from abusing them, find an employer that will treat you nicely. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Now we can see that terminating a contract is not the same as dismissal of an employee. |
Unfortunately the labor board does not see it as so black and white. I know...I speak from personal experience. Plus if this were true there would not be so many stories of people taking their employer to the labor board over this very issue and winning.
You can make all the theoretical arguments you want. The facts of the matter remain. (a) If it were so easy then all(most) hakwons would be following this. (b) No-one would win an argument of this type against their school.
Since both (a) and (b) are demonstratively false either the labor board's thinking is flawed... or your reasoning is. But I'm sure you can point me to the relevant labor law that backs up your assertions. Or not... like every other time I've asked you to.
Plus even if your reasoning is/was correct...one can simply refuse to sign a contract that gives the boss unilateral power to end the contract. Yes there are clauses that allow either party to end the contract...but they are usually for cause (such as the failure of the employee to obtain the proper visa. or his papers are not in order, or something similar.) |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| You can make all the theoretical arguments you want. |
You misspelled hagweon owner apologist excuses. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Ontheway is playing "I'm a lawyer" again. Nice. |
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bbunce
Joined: 28 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Working on Saturdays? I doubt korean teachers will accept it. Heck most owners would rather be playing golf on the weekends. Things are changing so just be prepared and understanding...to a point...I know at my place, the secretary just announced everyone will work from 1:30-9:30 everyday, Mon-Fri. We used to be able to leave or come late, according to our schedule. My contract says I can leave at 9:10 so I'll leave at 9:10. It is my little protest. It really sucks though because my first class is at 3:20 on some days. I guess I can clock in at 1:30 and go shopping at E-mart for 90 minutes. At least when I leave, I'll feel like I'm in a "happy, happy, happy, happy wuurld" |
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ssuprnova
Joined: 17 Dec 2010
Location: Saigon
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| bbunce wrote: |
| Working on Saturdays? I doubt korean teachers will accept it. Heck most owners would rather be playing golf on the weekends. Things are changing so just be prepared and understanding...to a point...I know at my place, the secretary just announced everyone will work from 1:30-9:30 everyday, Mon-Fri. We used to be able to leave or come late, according to our schedule. My contract says I can leave at 9:10 so I'll leave at 9:10. It is my little protest. It really sucks though because my first class is at 3:20 on some days. I guess I can clock in at 1:30 and go shopping at E-mart for 90 minutes. At least when I leave, I'll feel like I'm in a "happy, happy, happy, happy wuurld" |
Same thing happened at my hagweon. I just told them that if they plan to enforce fixed working hours, they'd better find a replacement.
The way hagweon owners operate is "if it's convenient for me we'll follow the contract to the letter; if not, we're going to treat it as a set of guidelines".
Case in point: my boss expected me to work from morning to evening during intensives and also come in for regular hours during the rest of the year. I told him he'd better decide whether he'd rather have me come in on a fixed schedule for the whole year or exploit me for 2 months a year and cut me some slack during the rest of the year. The thing is, more than 3/4 of my "new" students that come to our school during intensives to try it out end up staying for good, so his greed got the best of him and now I come in whenever I feel like it.
Also, the Korean teachers that come in on Saturdays have that written in their contracts. At my school, they're all part-timers. Also, the owner never shows up on Saturdays. |
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duke of new york
Joined: 23 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Actually, most contracts have a clause that allows either party to terminate the contract for any reason or no reason with the appropriate notice.
The employer does not need to provide any warnings or any reason as long as this notice equals or exceeds the 30 days required by labor rules for employers and meets the terms of the contract. The termination is then proper and legal, there is no wrongful termination and the employee has no legal recourse. |
I can't say for sure that this is wrong, since I can only speak for my own contract and haven't seen the majority of the contracts in Korea (neither have you, by the way), but my contract has nothing of the sort, I never would have signed it if it did, and I would be shocked if this was the standard. Honestly, it sounds like you just made this up. It is absurd to allow an employer to fire an employee without giving any reason at all, and frankly, anyone who signs a contract allowing their employer to do this probably deserves whatever they get.
For what it's worth, my hagwon has been open on Saturdays for as long as I have worked there, and I as far as I know, I am the only one who doesn't work on Saturdays (I'm the only foreign teacher there). If anyone is concerned about this kind of thing, you should know what you're signing up for before you take the job, and allow no exceptions to the terms of your contract once you're working. Know your rights. I don't know what else to tell you. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| duke of new york wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
Actually, most contracts have a clause that allows either party to terminate the contract for any reason or no reason with the appropriate notice.
The employer does not need to provide any warnings or any reason as long as this notice equals or exceeds the 30 days required by labor rules for employers and meets the terms of the contract. The termination is then proper and legal, there is no wrongful termination and the employee has no legal recourse. |
I can't say for sure that this is wrong, since I can only speak for my own contract and haven't seen the majority of the contracts in Korea (neither have you, by the way), but my contract has nothing of the sort, I never would have signed it if it did, and I would be shocked if this was the standard... |
It isn't. He's making it up. Out all all the thousands of contracts I've reviewed I've seen maybe 2 or 3 with dodgy sounding clauses similar to that. But I've only seen ONE that OUTRIGHT stated that the contract can be terminated at will for absolutely no reason at all. (that stuck in my memory because I've never seen its like again) Most state causes for termination which are in accordance with labor law/E-2 visa issuance.
No I haven't seen the majority of contracts in Korea either. But I think the list of contracts in the old thread and now the new one provide a fairly good sample...ESPECIALLY since many of them are from l CHAIN HAKWONS meaning the contract is pretty much the same (with minor variations ) for almost all of the dozens of the school in the franchise. |
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BooG690
Joined: 14 Oct 2011
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:57 am Post subject: |
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Bump.
My hagwon owners are looking for me to come in on Saturday due to Bolaven on Tuesday. Is there anything I can do to avoid this? It doesn't seem fair. |
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Skippy
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| BooG690 wrote: |
Bump.
My hagwon owners are looking for me to come in on Saturday due to Bolaven on Tuesday. Is there anything I can do to avoid this? It doesn't seem fair. |
Like they say, life is not fair. You need to decide to if this is worth making a stink about. What does you contract say? Many contracts say now a days that you may be asked to teach on some random Saturdays.
If you have nothing planned, then grit your teeth and do it. If you can make it a fun day, watch some video, play some games.
If you have something planned and have tickets bought, then consider asking them to reconsider.
Doing the Saturday can build some brownie points for you. Just need to make sure you get the acknowledgment for it.
As to actual laws, I really do not know. I guess not. |
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T-J
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
Location: Seoul EunpyungGu Yeonsinnae
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| BooG690 wrote: |
Bump.
My hagwon owners are looking for me to come in on Saturday due to Bolaven on Tuesday. Is there anything I can do to avoid this? It doesn't seem fair. |
I'm curious what part seems unfair to you. Did you work Tuesday? Are you being asked to work 5 or 6 days this week?
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luckylady
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories
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| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
| BooG690 wrote: |
Bump.
My hagwon owners are looking for me to come in on Saturday due to Bolaven on Tuesday. Is there anything I can do to avoid this? It doesn't seem fair. |
I'm curious what part seems unfair to you. Did you work Tuesday? Are you being asked to work 5 or 6 days this week?
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yeah, you might get a day's pay docked if the school was closed on Tuesday and you don't make it up - in which case the parents won't pay the school either so that's why you won't get paid that day. |
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