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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| it's not about being creative, it's about critical thinking skills. what is more helpful, in general: rote learning skills or analytical skills? |
You need both. You can't analyze without information to make that decision. Look at people (in the States) who try to judge current events and how many of them don't even know basic American or World history. When making their argument their failure to memorize shows up in the analyses they make.
You do realize that there used to be far more rote in the American educational system but that died down.
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| as for the benefits of creativity? i can count on one hand the koreans i've met that have music interests outside of kpop. |
I can count on all of my digits, plus yours the number of Koreans I've met who are into rock. Same goes for classical. And jazz. Now I will agree that there isn't the overall variety ( I mean, not much country music here) to say that all they care about is Kpop is ludicrous.
However with critical thinking and analysis we can understand why Koreans all enjoy Kpop- Noraebang. Noraebang is a social event. It is best enjoyed collectively, requiring one to be familiar with the songs that are popular. Therefore, many Koreans follow Kpop so they can have an enjoyable Noraebang experience and have things to talk about.
Unless I'm mistaken and its fun to hear about everyone's latest obscure hipster band that no one else cares about because they're too opinionated about their own music.
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| homogeneity of thought breeds a stagnant society. |
Yeah Korea's been really stagnant since 1950.
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| Unfortunately entrepreneurship requires some things much more important than creativity to be successful - tenacity, confidence, contacts, skills, luck and access to capital. Being creative is not a requirement for alot of sucessful companies - they are built on hard work and the above things. |
I'd agree with this. To expand on it, I'd say that for one thing, creativity often requires leisure and excess money in order to "pay-off". I'd say on both a macro and micro level its a bit much to ask someone or a country to be creative when they're poor and hungry.
Or think about it this way, owning a business and generating more money makes it easier for one to be creative in their leisure.
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| I consider myself a creative person but I judge that not by how many people work for me |
I'd agree. But I'd also say that a big part of creativity should be translating one's ideas into a finished product or at the least having a significant influence in its outcome. Otherwise, what good is it if it just sits inside one's head?
A lot of people in Korea talk about how "creative" they are or how great they are at critical thinking, but from my observation I think that's a little overstated and often seems to be a defense mechanism and a way of assuaging one's pride.
And again, it is silly to structure an educational curriculum around creativity if the majority of human beings are not creative nor have any great desire to be. All that leads to is a bunch of people without the necessary basic skills to prosper in the workplace. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Panda wrote: |
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And it's a fair question. What wonderful benefits has being more creative given you? |
A direct benefit is you are found to be a bit more interesting to be with.
And yourself might be slightly happier ( Korea is the unhappiest country in OECD)
Just my opinion. |
That's a possible benefit...but many truly creative people lack good social skills...Steve Jobs was a good example of this in the early days at least
"might be happier" Generally only if you are surrounded by other creative people. If no one else shares your views...you might end up being even more unhappy.
And let's be real here...there are very few truly creative people out there...anywhere. The vast majority of people back home and here are the same unthinking cogs in the machine.
As for Korea being the unhappiest country in the OECD...it's above the average in this poll
http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/1835-denmark-happiest-country.html
As we see Korea is significantly above the average and dead even with Canada and the United States. |
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Panda
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
That's a possible benefit...but many truly creative people lack good social skills...Steve Jobs was a good example of this in the early days at least
"might be happier" Generally only if you are surrounded by other creative people. If no one else shares your views...you might end up being even more unhappy.
And let's be real here...there are very few truly creative people out there...anywhere. The vast majority of people back home and here are the same unthinking cogs in the machine.
As for Korea being the unhappiest country in the OECD...it's above the average in this poll
http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/1835-denmark-happiest-country.html
As we see Korea is significantly above the average and dead even with Canada and the United States. |
I don't have any evidence for the relationship between being creative and happiness, I take it for granted that being creative or being critical can render you a good solution when there are problems bothering you?
Here is the article saying Korea is the 31st out of 32 countries for life satisfaction.
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2012/02/27/2012022701281.html
Those ranks usually don't tell true stories, but you can tell from your own experience from what happen to people around you that this country is very unhappy.
They feel obligated to follow the RULES and absolutely hate them but somehow they live with them and also push others to live with them. Once they can't stand any more, they either drink soju or kill themselves. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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Critical reasoning skills are essential in a Capatilist-democratic system where you are expected to be responsible for yourself and make your own choices. What product should I buy? Who should I vote for? Is recycling important? Who should I marry? - are all questions whose answers can be improved through critical reasoning skills.
Many Westerners are used to making their own choices and some of those people actually research and consider those choices.
One of the differences between a college educated person and one who is not is that the college educated person spent a little more time researching and understanding the world so that they may make more informed choices and decisions. It should be and is generally part of any Western university education.
IMHO, the results are mixed. There do seem to be more than the ordinary number of "thoughtful" people in the West. On the other hand, I don't believe in any way that a university education turns everyone into a "thoughtful" person.
I see Korea in the midst of transition, especially generational. At one time, it was not uncommon for parents or family patriarchs to make vertually all decisions for their children or family members. At work, bosses make decisions and employees follow them out. When I talk to my students about democratic or laisefare (sp?) decision making models they are intrigued because they aren't all that familiar.
You have to remember that the latest experiment with democracy has only been in Korea since when? 1992 or so? Roughly 20 years. It was a dictatorship before that. People didn't make decisions. They only had a primary system in which the electorate chose their candidates since 2000 when Roh suprisingly won the nomination of the Democratic Party.
Parents chose who you married, what job you got and just about everything.
But, this has all been changing. Young Koreans are making decisions for themselves in a much larger degree and it is only going to grow. And with it will come more demand for critical reasoning skills.
But, the old generation isn't going to change and the middle generation is stuck in between and the young generation has probably learned some bad lessons but they are trying hard to change, especially those who have had some education in the West, a growing segment of the Korean population.
Korea has come a long way since the Korean War. It still has a long way to go. But, I see a lot more Koreans excited about and accepting of change. And, that is one of the reasons that makes Korea such an interesting place to be. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Panda wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
That's a possible benefit...but many truly creative people lack good social skills...Steve Jobs was a good example of this in the early days at least
"might be happier" Generally only if you are surrounded by other creative people. If no one else shares your views...you might end up being even more unhappy.
And let's be real here...there are very few truly creative people out there...anywhere. The vast majority of people back home and here are the same unthinking cogs in the machine.
As for Korea being the unhappiest country in the OECD...it's above the average in this poll
http://www.lifeslittlemysteries.com/1835-denmark-happiest-country.html
As we see Korea is significantly above the average and dead even with Canada and the United States. |
I don't have any evidence for the relationship between being creative and happiness, I take it for granted that being creative or being critical can render you a good solution when there are problems bothering you?
Here is the article saying Korea is the 31st out of 32 countries for life satisfaction.
http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2012/02/27/2012022701281.html
Those ranks usually don't tell true stories, but you can tell from your own experience from what happen to people around you that this country is very unhappy.
They feel obligated to follow the RULES and absolutely hate them but somehow they live with them and also push others to live with them. Once they can't stand any more, they either drink soju or kill themselves. |
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| In the "How's Life?" initiative, the results of which were published online Oct. 12, the OECD used data from 2010 Gallup world polls to calculate the happiness and well-being of people in 40 different countries, and investigated which factors have the strongest influence on people's happiness |
Well my article used data from the OECD and linked to the actual study.
Your source is an English newspaper here...are you aware of the quality of English newspapers here? They print stories about UFO's for crying out loud. And there is no link to claimed study. And that paper is notorious for printing all kinds of negative claims whether they are true or not...did a hatchet job on foreign teachers a few years ago.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/23571/chosun-ilbo-responds-to-foreign-teacher-criticism/
I'd say my source is far more reliable.
As for the unhappiness you state that "you can tell from your own experience from what happen to people around you that this country is very unhappy."
Well if I'm using my own experience I have to say "no not really. Not more so than most other countries."
And the OECD data backs that up.
Right..all Koreans either drink soju or kill themselves...really where do you come up with this stuff? Honestly? |
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ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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Wow..
Lots of defenders here although I'm not sure they know what they are defending!
Lets look at the hagwon schedule most parents put their children through- a possible morning then school, then back to the hagwon for study until 10pm. How is this efficient? How is it healthy? I realize how much most have taken the US education system for granted. In high school some had jobs, played sports, or did community service. Overall I'd say this teaches youth skills they will need and most of the time it isn't class-specific. In Korea, a student would just study after school or spend time at a hagwon. What is the sense of having school if it doesn't "teach" the proper skills you need to learn for these tests?
I think one big problem here is the fear to ask "Why". It is important for us, but not for our students/coworkers because that question isn't a concern for them. This is something we also take for granted but the people here should start doing. It will slow progress for awhile however it will also reduce problems before they are created.
To some degree I understand the apologist mentality. They found success, and questioning the status quo is challenging to their success. Hoping we won't derail the thread with what I just stated (you can PM me) but I think if our students learned to feel comfortable with asking questions everyone can win. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| ThingsComeAround wrote: |
Wow..
Lots of defenders here although I'm not sure they know what they are defending!
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I'm not sure that you know either. No one said anything about the hakwon schedule being efficient or healthy. We are asking people to provide support for their claims of being more creative. So far they've come up with exactly zero, zip, nada.
Nor is questioning the status quo challenging to our success. We'd succeed under a different status quo just fine. Because the secrets to success are not that different the world over...no matter what SOME people would like to think. |
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ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
I'm not sure that you know either. No one said anything about the hakwon schedule being efficient or healthy. We are asking people to provide support for their claims of being more creative. So far they've come up with exactly zero, zip, nada.
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Fair enough.
We will have to agree to disagree  |
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Panda
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Well my article used data from the OECD and linked to the actual study.
Your source is an English newspaper here...are you aware of the quality of English newspapers here? They print stories about UFO's for crying out loud. And there is no link to claimed study. And that paper is notorious for printing all kinds of negative claims whether they are true or not...did a hatchet job on foreign teachers a few years ago.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/23571/chosun-ilbo-responds-to-foreign-teacher-criticism/
I'd say my source is far more reliable.
As for the unhappiness you state that "you can tell from your own experience from what happen to people around you that this country is very unhappy."
Well if I'm using my own experience I have to say "no not really. Not more so than most other countries."
And the OECD data backs that up.
Right..all Koreans either drink soju or kill themselves...really where do you come up with this stuff? Honestly? |
LOL, your argument is a good example of POINTLESS critical thinking. Which is: you would rather spend more time arguing I might be wrong (using some indirect evidences) than just spend a few seconds to check if my argument is actual wrong or not.
You've almost got a Korean way to critize.
Here is the link http://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocumentpdf/?cote=ECO/WKP(2011)90&docLanguage=En (page 26)
I found it directly from the Chosun Ilbo article I posted. |
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Unposter
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think it is quite so simple to just criticize "Tiger Education." In fact, I suspect it might be the wave of the future for both good and bad.
I mean what is wrong with motivating your child to study? There is nothing in of itself wrong with that. Of course, there is much to be said for more well-rounded individuals as well as for students who can study without their parents planning everything. Decision making, goal making and delaying personal satisfaction are all important skills as well.
But, all these things are up to parents and their children. As educators we need to provide an environment where all can learn from Tigers to Lambs.
Today's world is much more competitive than the one I grew up in. You don't just compete with people in your own country but with people from all over the world and young people today are going to have to learn to deal with the problems associated with it. In some ways I really feel sorry for young people because of all these changes. From just the top of my head, when I was kid, you just went trick or treating. I never worried about whose house I went to or what was in the candy. Pranks were common. And, we never worried about getting arrested for it either - it was all clean fun. None of that is true today. And, the job market is tough and it is only going to get tougher.
I think we are going to see a lot more Tiger moms in the future.
I don't personally like it. But, I think it is a choice that a lot of parents are going to make so that their children can lead middle class or better lives.
When I was a kid, there was this little thing called a typewriter. It is what I learned to type on. Today, good luck finding one. There are going to be plenty of changes in your life. The changes are coming quicker and quicker. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 2:36 am Post subject: |
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| Panda wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Well my article used data from the OECD and linked to the actual study.
Your source is an English newspaper here...are you aware of the quality of English newspapers here? They print stories about UFO's for crying out loud. And there is no link to claimed study. And that paper is notorious for printing all kinds of negative claims whether they are true or not...did a hatchet job on foreign teachers a few years ago.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/23571/chosun-ilbo-responds-to-foreign-teacher-criticism/
I'd say my source is far more reliable.
As for the unhappiness you state that "you can tell from your own experience from what happen to people around you that this country is very unhappy."
Well if I'm using my own experience I have to say "no not really. Not more so than most other countries."
And the OECD data backs that up.
Right..all Koreans either drink soju or kill themselves...really where do you come up with this stuff? Honestly? |
LOL, your argument is a good example of POINTLESS critical thinking. Which is: you would rather spend more time arguing I might be wrong (using some indirect evidences) than just spend a few seconds to check if my argument is actual wrong or not.
You've almost got a Korean way to critize.
Here is the link http://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocumentpdf/?cote=ECO/WKP(2011)90&docLanguage=En (page 26)
I found it directly from the Chosun Ilbo article I posted. |
The data used in the study you cited is from 1994-2008..meaning that at least some of the data is 16 years old. Even the most recent is nearly 4 years ago.
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Life satisfaction varies a lot among the 32 countries in the sample across the time period from 1994 to
2008 (Figure 3). Denmark is clearly identified as the country where people are on average most satisfied
with their lives with an average value of 8.2 on a scale that runs from 1 to 10. |
The data used in the study that I cited is from 2010..less than 2 years ago.
| Quote: |
| In the "How's Life?" initiative, the results of which were published online Oct. 12, the OECD used data from 2010 Gallup world polls to calculate the happiness and well-being of people in 40 different countries, and investigated which factors have the strongest influence on people's happiness |
Mine is more recent. Which means it is likely a more accurate picture of how things are today.
Better luck next time. |
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Panda
Joined: 25 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| I laugh at people who say " better luck next time" and truely believe that can make them seem righter... |
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out of context
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Location: Daejeon
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| It seems more a question of methodology than anything else. Not that the time periods under examination aren't important (people could very well be happier now that in the 1994--2008 period, especially if you factor in the crisis of the late 90s), but it looks like the one survey asked "How are you feeling today?" and the other asked "How satisfied are you with your life as a whole?" I would probably give different answers for the two questions if asked them on any given day. |
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Carbon
Joined: 28 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
My god you set up a ton of strawmen and throw around red herrings like they're going out of style. You've got this lovely fantasy that anyone who agrees with this Korean university professor about a weakness in Korean education is some sad pseudo-intellectual narcissist Asia-hating Westerner who can't get a job back home. While people are discussing the issue, and some are even mentioning where Korea does well with math compared to the States, you basically call them all hypocrites for not being Steve Jobs. No one is talking about owning businesses, as we're talking about education and the lives/performance of students, but you're trying to make the discussion about job creators (you're not running in the primary back home, are you?).
I won't waste the space here to poke holes in your flimsy arguments about creativity, but for the love of god, could you quit derailing every topic that's critical of some part of Korean society? Even when a Korean professor starts the discussion you just can't let it go...
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+1. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Panda wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Well my article used data from the OECD and linked to the actual study.
Your source is an English newspaper here...are you aware of the quality of English newspapers here? They print stories about UFO's for crying out loud. And there is no link to claimed study. And that paper is notorious for printing all kinds of negative claims whether they are true or not...did a hatchet job on foreign teachers a few years ago.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/23571/chosun-ilbo-responds-to-foreign-teacher-criticism/
I'd say my source is far more reliable.
As for the unhappiness you state that "you can tell from your own experience from what happen to people around you that this country is very unhappy."
Well if I'm using my own experience I have to say "no not really. Not more so than most other countries."
And the OECD data backs that up.
Right..all Koreans either drink soju or kill themselves...really where do you come up with this stuff? Honestly? |
LOL, your argument is a good example of POINTLESS critical thinking. Which is: you would rather spend more time arguing I might be wrong (using some indirect evidences) than just spend a few seconds to check if my argument is actual wrong or not.
You've almost got a Korean way to critize.
Here is the link http://www.oecd.org/officialdocuments/publicdisplaydocumentpdf/?cote=ECO/WKP(2011)90&docLanguage=En (page 26)
I found it directly from the Chosun Ilbo article I posted. |
The data used in the study you cited is from 1994-2008..meaning that at least some of the data is 16 years old. Even the most recent is nearly 4 years ago.
| Quote: |
Life satisfaction varies a lot among the 32 countries in the sample across the time period from 1994 to
2008 (Figure 3). Denmark is clearly identified as the country where people are on average most satisfied
with their lives with an average value of 8.2 on a scale that runs from 1 to 10. |
The data used in the study that I cited is from 2010..less than 2 years ago.
| Quote: |
| In the "How's Life?" initiative, the results of which were published online Oct. 12, the OECD used data from 2010 Gallup world polls to calculate the happiness and well-being of people in 40 different countries, and investigated which factors have the strongest influence on people's happiness |
Mine is more recent. Which means it is likely a more accurate picture of how things are today.
Better luck next time. |
Well, I've got an article which is even more recent than yours, which draws on data from multiple surveys, including one conducted in 2011-
http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20111206000744
A report released by the state-run Korea Development Institute earlier this year put Korea�s quality of life at 27th among 39 countries belonging to the OECD and/or the Group of 20 in 2008, unchanged from the ranking in 2000. The country�s per capita gross national income increased from $10,841 to $19,296 over the cited period, according to statistics from the Bank of Korea. It is estimated to reach $24,000 this year, up from $20,759 in 2010.
Some analysts note that Korea has reached the phase of being subjected to the Easterlin paradox, put forward by U.S. economist Richard Easterlin in 1974. The paradox states that although people with higher incomes are more likely to report being happy, rising incomes do not necessarily lead to increases in subjective well-being.
The KDI report indicated Korea is in urgent need of working out a �development strategy that ensures a balance between growth and social integration.�
Rep. Sohn Hak-kyu, chairman of the main opposition Democratic Party, also mentioned the economic concept during a parliamentary session in September, urging Strategy and Finance Minister Bahk Jae-wan to shift the policy paradigm from growth to quality of life.
�Improvements in objective indicators do not seem to be much correlated with individuals� subjective feelings in Korea,� said Kim Joong-baeck, professor of sociology at Kyung Hee University in Seoul.
�In a country like Korea, which has gone through a period of fast growth, many people are left without the accurate sense of their right status and thus likely to feel more deprived,� he said.
Uneasy conditions
The uneasy aspects of Koreans� lives are reflected in the OECD�s index.
They work 2,256 hours a year, much higher than the OECD average of 1,739 hours and the highest rate among its member states. Koreans spend 55 minutes a day commuting to work, longer than the OECD average of 38 minutes, and devote 3.84 hours to leisure, compared with an average 4.31 hours among OECD members.
The average Korean home contains 1.3 rooms per person, less than the OECD average of 1.6 rooms per person. In terms of basic facilities, 7.5 percent of dwellings in Korea lack private access to indoor flushing toilets, much higher than the OECD average of 2.8 percent.
Only 41 percent of them say they trust their political institutions, one of the lowest rates in the OECD area. Nearly 65 percent of Koreans believe corruption has permeated their government, compared with the OECD average of 57.1 percent.
Koreans have notably put a high emphasis on the value of education, especially admission into a selected number of prestigious universities, which they believe will ensure success in life.
But the nation�s obsession with educational achievements has resulted in many family tragedies.
Days before the opening of the international aid forum in Busan, Koreans were shocked by a police announcement that a high school senior in Seoul killed his mother who was forcing him to become a �learning machine� and kept her body in their home for eight months.
Experts note the case, the latest in a series of domestic tragedies over the past years, illustrates the dissolution of families in Korean society as well as the severe fallout of the obsession with academic achievements.
They say that if the boy had not been left in such isolation that made his mother�s abusiveness all the more unbearable, their distorted relationship would not have led to matricide.
According to figures from Statistics Korea, two-person households accounted for 24.3 percent of the total last year, followed by single-member households with 23.9 percent, those with four members with 22.5 percent and those with three members with 21.3 percent.
Korean households are also under a rising debt burden, with household loans increasing from 797.4 trillion won ($700 billion) last year to 840.9 trillion won in September.
The average annual household income increased by 6.3 percent to slightly over 40 million won from 37 million won over the cited period, with its repayment of the principle and interest jumping by more than 22 percent to 6 million won from 4.8 million won.
�It is becoming really hard to make both ends meet with my salary,� said a 39-year-old company employee surnamed Kim, who borrowed more than 100 million won to buy an apartment early this year.
Emerging as a problem that may further threaten social stability is the retirement of 7.58 million baby boomers born between 1955 and 1963 over the coming years. A recent statistic showed only a quarter of baby-boomer households have minimum assets needed for their post-retirement life.
In a gloomy reflection of the distress weighing on Koreans, their suicide rate has remained the highest in the developed world since early 2000s. The number of suicides per 100,000 people reached 31 in Korea in 2009, compared to 24.4 in Japan and 21.5 in Hungary, which ranked second and third on the list of OECD members, according to figures compiled from data of the World Health Organization.
Better luck next time. |
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