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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| Dave Chance wrote: |
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Better luck next time. |
Actually sir it is you that requires the luck and not me.
Panda wrote "Korea is the unhappiest country in OECD"
If we go by the figures in your stats
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| A report released by the state-run Korea Development Institute earlier this year put Korea�s quality of life at 27th among 39 countries belonging to the OECD |
27th out of 39 is still a far cry from the unhappiest.
And that report is from the Korea Development Institute...MY stats come from the OECD which trumps the KDI any day of the week.
So yes, better luck to you and Miss Panda.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 4:09 am Post subject: |
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| Panda wrote: |
| I laugh at people who say " better luck next time" and truely believe that can make them seem righter... |
So you laugh at people who are being nice...okay.... |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| A report released by the state-run Korea Development Institute earlier this year put Korea�s quality of life at 27th among 39 countries belonging to the OECD and/or the Group of 20 in 2008, unchanged from the ranking in 2000. |
TUM, gonna tell you the same thing I tell my students: don't stop reading immediately when you think you've found the answer. Sometimes there are clues or important details that follow the keyword you're scanning for. You stopped right in the middle of a dependent clause 
This complicates things a bit. Korea might not be in the very last slot in the OECD, but it is likely very low, as the G20 countries not in the OECD are:
South Africa
Argentina
China
Brazil
India
Indonesia
Russia
Saudi Arabia
There are 8, which overshoots the 39 countries mentioned in the article, as there are 34 countries in the OECD, according to their website. So some of those G20 countries may have not been included for comparison. However, it would stand to reason that Korea ought to beat any of them out, as would just about any other OECD member nation (based on them being developing countries or having institutionalized oppression). So Korea's ranking would appear to be near the bottom of the OECD but edging out some of the G20 countries. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
| Quote: |
| A report released by the state-run Korea Development Institute earlier this year put Korea�s quality of life at 27th among 39 countries belonging to the OECD and/or the Group of 20 in 2008, unchanged from the ranking in 2000. |
TUM, gonna tell you the same thing I tell my students: don't stop reading immediately when you think you've found the answer. Sometimes there are clues or important details that follow the keyword you're scanning for. You stopped right in the middle of a dependent clause
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I stopped there because it proved my point. This ENTIRE debate came about because Miz Panda stated that Korea was the unhappiest country in the OECD. I said this was not true and posted a link from the OECD itself stating otherwise.
Now even if we take the above link as gospel (I'll get back to that) it still proves that Korea is not the unhappiest country as you yourself seem to agree. Even including the G20 countries not in the OECD.
Getting back to that link it is by the KDI which seems to give extra weighting to the finance factor in the quality of life. Note that it particularly stresses the "gross national income" and the remarks about income.
The OECD gives a more balanced view thus its report is likely to be more accurate. And it's also likely to be more objective than the KDI which is after all a state-run organization. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:07 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| DIsbell wrote: |
| Quote: |
| A report released by the state-run Korea Development Institute earlier this year put Korea�s quality of life at 27th among 39 countries belonging to the OECD and/or the Group of 20 in 2008, unchanged from the ranking in 2000. |
TUM, gonna tell you the same thing I tell my students: don't stop reading immediately when you think you've found the answer. Sometimes there are clues or important details that follow the keyword you're scanning for. You stopped right in the middle of a dependent clause
. |
I stopped there because it proved my point. This ENTIRE debate came about because Miz Panda stated that Korea was the unhappiest country in the OECD. I said this was not true and posted a link from the OECD itself stating otherwise.
Now even if we take the above link as gospel (I'll get back to that) it still proves that Korea is not the unhappiest country as you yourself seem to agree. Even including the G20 countries not in the OECD.
Getting back to that link it is by the KDI which seems to give extra weighting to the finance factor in the quality of life. Note that it particularly stresses the "gross national income" and the remarks about income.
The OECD gives a more balanced view thus its report is likely to be more accurate. And it's also likely to be more objective than the KDI which is after all a state-run organization. |
In a gloomy reflection of the distress weighing on Koreans, their suicide rate has remained the highest in the developed world since early 2000s. The number of suicides per 100,000 people reached 31 in Korea in 2009, compared to 24.4 in Japan and 21.5 in Hungary, which ranked second and third on the list of OECD members, according to figures compiled from data of the World Health Organization. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| Dave Chance wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| DIsbell wrote: |
| Quote: |
| A report released by the state-run Korea Development Institute earlier this year put Korea�s quality of life at 27th among 39 countries belonging to the OECD and/or the Group of 20 in 2008, unchanged from the ranking in 2000. |
TUM, gonna tell you the same thing I tell my students: don't stop reading immediately when you think you've found the answer. Sometimes there are clues or important details that follow the keyword you're scanning for. You stopped right in the middle of a dependent clause
. |
I stopped there because it proved my point. This ENTIRE debate came about because Miz Panda stated that Korea was the unhappiest country in the OECD. I said this was not true and posted a link from the OECD itself stating otherwise.
Now even if we take the above link as gospel (I'll get back to that) it still proves that Korea is not the unhappiest country as you yourself seem to agree. Even including the G20 countries not in the OECD.
Getting back to that link it is by the KDI which seems to give extra weighting to the finance factor in the quality of life. Note that it particularly stresses the "gross national income" and the remarks about income.
The OECD gives a more balanced view thus its report is likely to be more accurate. And it's also likely to be more objective than the KDI which is after all a state-run organization. |
In a gloomy reflection of the distress weighing on Koreans, their suicide rate has remained the highest in the developed world since early 2000s. The number of suicides per 100,000 people reached 31 in Korea in 2009, compared to 24.4 in Japan and 21.5 in Hungary, which ranked second and third on the list of OECD members, according to figures compiled from data of the World Health Organization. |
True, but Korea scores comparably low in terms of incarceration, assault, robbery, burglary, and murder.
So it could be said that when Koreans are angry and frustrated with the world, rather than take it out on other people, they take it out on themselves. Gee, that's a stupid concept. |
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ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:00 am Post subject: |
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"A recent spate of studies has proclaimed the superiority of East Asia's 'tiger education' over the West's less beastly variety. But while the model has its strong points, the hidden costs will surely give pause to any American mothers considering growing fangs."
So American children shouldn't spend less time playing video games and more time doing homework because in Korea your whole life can be determined by how well you do on the university entrance exam and employers often won't consider applicants from second tier universities? It does seem like the article lacks coherence. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:38 am Post subject: |
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The message was pretty clear to me: you probably don't want to precisely imitate Tiger Mother education (in which the author seems to include a do-or-die standardized test) because while it might lead to higher standardized test scores, it would just as likely create a score of new problems that the author witnesses here in Korea.
America could feasibly avoid some of Korea's woes by virtue of having more than a small handful of worthwhile, recognized universities and an employment environment that cares a bit more about demonstrable skills and experience compared to the brand on one's diploma. However, the caste system mentioned in this article would only be amplified in an American setting, given the massive wealth inequality, less rigidly-ordered families, and racial/ethnic diversity (that is still grouped strongly with wealth).
But let's face it, the only reason Tiger Mothering is a discussion topic in the States is due to Sinophobia. Americans don't care that Asian American mothers push their kids and typically get strong SAT scores; American media is stoking fears of Chinese dominance. I'd say the real winners in the global education game are Canada and the Scandinavian countries. IIRC, Finns don't even start school till 7 years old, and typically seem to have pretty 'normal' childhoods. But there's nothing threatening about Canada and Scandinavians. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see why a standardized test is part of Tiger-education. And as for the belief that Asian-American mothers push their kids to get SAT scores, sorry but A-A mothers pay attention to what colleges look for and push emphasize grades and extracurriculars as well.
What Tiger Education IS about is pushing your child to do well in whatever they pursue, not just allowing them to give up and move to the next thing and go through an endless phase cycle.
Also I think what is pushing TE is not Sinophobia, but more underlying doubts and assessments of a less-rigid educational philosophy that has produced a generation of students that on whole, are less capable than their predecessors. Some parents in America bought into some sort of creativity-feelings-no hard work-laissez-faire idealistic mush that contrary to movies and TV, didn't produce the happy ending they dreamed of. It worked for 20% of families that did it, was OK for many more, but has let down legions. |
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ThingsComeAround
Joined: 07 Nov 2008
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I don't see why a standardized test is part of Tiger-education. And as for the belief that Asian-American mothers push their kids to get SAT scores, sorry but A-A mothers pay attention to what colleges look for and push emphasize grades and extracurriculars as well.
Like this 
What Tiger Education IS about is pushing your child to do well in whatever they pursue, not just allowing them to give up and move to the next thing and go through an endless phase cycle.
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The second part I disagree with a bit.
I think the whole part of Tiger Ed is pushing your child to do well, but in what the parent wants for the child. Often I see students here being strong-armed to pursue a "good job" which doesn't hold their interest. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Chance wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| DIsbell wrote: |
| Quote: |
| A report released by the state-run Korea Development Institute earlier this year put Korea�s quality of life at 27th among 39 countries belonging to the OECD and/or the Group of 20 in 2008, unchanged from the ranking in 2000. |
TUM, gonna tell you the same thing I tell my students: don't stop reading immediately when you think you've found the answer. Sometimes there are clues or important details that follow the keyword you're scanning for. You stopped right in the middle of a dependent clause
. |
I stopped there because it proved my point. This ENTIRE debate came about because Miz Panda stated that Korea was the unhappiest country in the OECD. I said this was not true and posted a link from the OECD itself stating otherwise.
Now even if we take the above link as gospel (I'll get back to that) it still proves that Korea is not the unhappiest country as you yourself seem to agree. Even including the G20 countries not in the OECD.
Getting back to that link it is by the KDI which seems to give extra weighting to the finance factor in the quality of life. Note that it particularly stresses the "gross national income" and the remarks about income.
The OECD gives a more balanced view thus its report is likely to be more accurate. And it's also likely to be more objective than the KDI which is after all a state-run organization. |
In a gloomy reflection of the distress weighing on Koreans, their suicide rate has remained the highest in the developed world since early 2000s. The number of suicides per 100,000 people reached 31 in Korea in 2009, compared to 24.4 in Japan and 21.5 in Hungary, which ranked second and third on the list of OECD members, according to figures compiled from data of the World Health Organization. |
Which does not prove that it is the unhappiest country in the OECD...only that it MAY have been the unhappiest country in the OECD IN 2009.
And on that topic this is now 2012...wonder why the stats for 2010 or 2011 haven't been bought up...possibly because they show that 2009 was an outlier event? |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| ThingsComeAround wrote: |
The second part I disagree with a bit.
I think the whole part of Tiger Ed is pushing your child to do well, but in what the parent wants for the child. Often I see students here being strong-armed to pursue a "good job" which doesn't hold their interest. |
This how I saw it as well. An American example of this is fathers trying to live through their sons by forcing them into football. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:27 am Post subject: |
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| fermentation wrote: |
| ThingsComeAround wrote: |
The second part I disagree with a bit.
I think the whole part of Tiger Ed is pushing your child to do well, but in what the parent wants for the child. Often I see students here being strong-armed to pursue a "good job" which doesn't hold their interest. |
This how I saw it as well. An American example of this is fathers trying to live through their sons by forcing them into football. |
I think that's a really fair comparison.
[quote='Steelrails"]Also I think what is pushing TE is not Sinophobia, but more underlying doubts and assessments of a less-rigid educational philosophy that has produced a generation of students that on whole, are less capable than their predecessors. Some parents in America bought into some sort of creativity-feelings-no hard work-laissez-faire idealistic mush that contrary to movies and TV, didn't produce the happy ending they dreamed of. It worked for 20% of families that did it, was OK for many more, but has let down legions.[/quote]
Disagree. Wealthier Americans from stable homes still score and achieve very well. The 'fall' has come from three sides- other countries becoming more competitive, and American educational structure (funding, district drawing, reduced funding, and now almost Catch-22 ties to dollars) weakening, and further stratification of wealth. Talk to your parents about their schooling: they weren't drilled hard in math, they weren't made to be functional in a second language, and they were also told that they could make something out of themselves if they tried- and they weren't all engineers and doctors; liberal arts degrees weren't the butt of jokes that they often are today. Their teachers weren't any more or less amazing than ours. Their parents didn't truck them from academy to academy after school, and they didn't cram for standardized exams. Yet they were the products of what was, at the time, the top primary and secondary education in the world.
What let's down more kids than 'creativity' and 'idealism' in pedagogy (again, see Canada and the Nordic/Scandanavians; New Zealand and Australia as well) is poverty and structural flaws. To Korea's credit their public education is quite well set up structurally and they make sure that damn near all children get an education. I'd say that's what we could learn from more than the cram culture of Tiger Mothering. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| What incentive is there for education to emphasize creativity and critical thinking skills when the vast majority of jobs out there require neither? |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| What incentive is there for education to emphasize creativity and critical thinking skills when the vast majority of jobs out there require neither? |
To be fair, our current educational system doesn't prepare for jobs anyway. Most people aren't going to using what they learned in highschool for their jobs. If you're saying schools should teach kids how to prepare for the "real world," I agree. I wish they taught more practical information on living and getting a job.
I do think creativity and critical thinking are important though. If not for holding a job, but at least for making sure our kids aren't mindless drones. |
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