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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
The Korans that were burned recently were from a library on base that the inmates used. They were writing and tearing pages of the Koran to communicate with each other (which is desecration).
So the US burned the Korans that had already been desecrated by the inmates. |
And as the link from the daily.censored.com in my last post notes...that IS the accepted way to get rid of desecrated Korans...they just have to be burned separately from other garbage. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
The Korans that were burned recently were from a library on base that the inmates used. They were writing and tearing pages of the Koran to communicate with each other (which is desecration).
So the US burned the Korans that had already been desecrated by the inmates. |
And as the link from the daily.censored.com in my last post notes...that IS the accepted way to get rid of desecrated Korans...they just have to be burned separately from other garbage. |
They weren't burned separately, so that's a non-issue. Also according to the articles I've seen much of that writing was simply religious notes, not secret communications. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
[
They weren't burned separately, so that's a non-issue. Also according to the articles I've seen much of that writing was simply religious notes, not secret communications. |
Link? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
[
They weren't burned separately, so that's a non-issue. Also according to the articles I've seen much of that writing was simply religious notes, not secret communications. |
Link? |
"Dad also claimed the investigation had shown that some detainees had written their names, their father's names, their inmate identification numbers and the date they were detained in some of the books that were not destroyed. Some of the books written in Arabic also had definitions of Arabic words scribbled in Dari or Pashto, the two Afghan languages.
"I didn't see anything that suggested that messages were being exchanged between prisoners or with outsiders," he said."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/03/afghanistan-quran-burnings_n_1318297.html |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
The Korans that were burned recently were from a library on base that the inmates used. They were writing and tearing pages of the Koran to communicate with each other (which is desecration).
So the US burned the Korans that had already been desecrated by the inmates. |
And as the link from the daily.censored.com in my last post notes...that IS the accepted way to get rid of desecrated Korans...they just have to be burned separately from other garbage. |
They weren't burned separately, so that's a non-issue. Also according to the articles I've seen much of that writing was simply religious notes, not secret communications. |
What was written is a non-issue. Its the fact the inmates were writing in the Koran at all. Where are the protests, protesting the inmates writing in the Koran?
What do you think would happen to a Muslim woman in Iran who was caught writing in a Koran?
The protests are driven by the minority. Anyone living in Korea knows what its like. You've seen first hand how a few groups can rile up a large population with misinformation and lies (Beef protests, FTA protests). |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
The Korans that were burned recently were from a library on base that the inmates used. They were writing and tearing pages of the Koran to communicate with each other (which is desecration).
So the US burned the Korans that had already been desecrated by the inmates. |
And as the link from the daily.censored.com in my last post notes...that IS the accepted way to get rid of desecrated Korans...they just have to be burned separately from other garbage. |
They weren't burned separately, so that's a non-issue. Also according to the articles I've seen much of that writing was simply religious notes, not secret communications. |
What was written is a non-issue. Its the fact the inmates were writing in the Koran at all. Where are the protests, protesting the inmates writing in the Koran?
What do you think would happen to a Muslim woman in Iran who was caught writing in a Koran?
The protests are driven by the minority. Anyone living in Korea knows what its like. You've seen first hand how a few groups can rile up a large population with misinformation and lies (Beef protests, FTA protests). |
Not if it were religious notes. Protests are always driven by the minority. Where are the misinformation and lies though? The korans were burned, innocents are killed both by rogue soldiers and air strikes, etc. etc. The U.S. backed leader is corrupt, I mean can you see no genuine concerns here? |
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aq8knyus
Joined: 28 Jul 2010
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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NATO intervened in a civil war, a bitter civil war fought on ethic lines. The analogy of a foreign occupier in your country would only work if your home country had suffered brutal ethnic civil war and religious theocracy.
The opinions of a pashtun in Kandahar will be a lot different to that of a Hazara in Mazari-e-Sharif.
The NATO forces did not intervene for the sake of conquest and they have to date behaved far better than the Soviets. No carpet bombing of Kandahar and no rounding up of women and children dousing them in petrol and burning them alive.
That being said NATO is being defeated and will be defeated so the rights and wrongs are pretty meaningless. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| aq8knyus wrote: |
NATO intervened in a civil war, a bitter civil war fought on ethic lines. The analogy of a foreign occupier in your country would only work if your home country had suffered brutal ethnic civil war and religious theocracy.
The opinions of a pashtun in Kandahar will be a lot different to that of a Hazara in Mazari-e-Sharif.
The NATO forces did not intervene for the sake of conquest and they have to date behaved far better than the Soviets. No carpet bombing of Kandahar and no rounding up of women and children dousing them in petrol and burning them alive.
That being said NATO is being defeated and will be defeated so the rights and wrongs are pretty meaningless. |
In some ways it's more like a covert war with NATO facing off against the ISI, meanwhile claiming we're allies with Pakistan. |
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pkang0202
Joined: 09 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
Not if it were religious notes. Protests are always driven by the minority. Where are the misinformation and lies though? The korans were burned, innocents are killed both by rogue soldiers and air strikes, etc. etc. The U.S. backed leader is corrupt, I mean can you see no genuine concerns here? |
I see some Korans being burned due to human error.
I see one guy who lost his mind and shot up a bunch of civilians.
I do NOT see systematic abuses sanctioned by the higher ups that warrant the violent protests that are happening. I don't have any problems with protests. I do have a problem with people KILLING other people in the name of protest. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:50 am Post subject: |
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| pkang0202 wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
Not if it were religious notes. Protests are always driven by the minority. Where are the misinformation and lies though? The korans were burned, innocents are killed both by rogue soldiers and air strikes, etc. etc. The U.S. backed leader is corrupt, I mean can you see no genuine concerns here? |
I see some Korans being burned due to human error.
I see one guy who lost his mind and shot up a bunch of civilians.
I do NOT see systematic abuses sanctioned by the higher ups that warrant the violent protests that are happening. I don't have any problems with protests. I do have a problem with people KILLING other people in the name of protest. |
Really? Know how many civilians our actions have killed? The U.S. has directly killed at least 6,215 - 9,007 and indirectly killed 29,007. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)
Many of them women and children. I have a problem with people killing other people too, you know who's killed more civilians, I'll give you a hint it's not the Taliban. That's not a defense of the Taliban, they are scum, but anyone who has a problem with killing and gets upset by some protests is missing the bigger picture. Soldiers deaths are a tragedy, but they sign up for this. Civilian deaths, and especially deaths of children, is a whole different thing. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 5:10 am Post subject: |
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The murders were disgusting. The Taliban can not win the war with guns they have mostly been driven into Pakistan, but they can win the P.R. war. The urban myth is correct about the protests and how a few can influence the many. In asymentrical warfare civillians suffer the most. The Taliban reguraly terroirizes cillian populations commits atrocities but this is usually done in out of the way places where there are few journalist.ng the U.S.
Now when NATO leaves and the blood bath begins the same people who are so quick to condemn the U.S. for being in Afghanistan will be condemning the U.S. for not intervening. India and Pakistan and to some extent Russia, China and Iran are all stirring the pot its a very ugly situation and ugly things will happen. That is not an excuse for the soldiers action. Remember there was already a civil war raging before NATO intervened a civil war with civillian deaths and attrocities. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
The murders were disgusting. The Taliban can not win the war with guns they have mostly been driven into Pakistan, but they can win the P.R. war. The urban myth is correct about the protests and how a few can influence the many. In asymentrical warfare civillians suffer the most. The Taliban reguraly terroirizes cillian populations commits atrocities but this is usually done in out of the way places where there are few journalist.ng the U.S.
Now when NATO leaves and the blood bath begins the same people who are so quick to condemn the U.S. for being in Afghanistan will be condemning the U.S. for not intervening. India and Pakistan and to some extent Russia, China and Iran are all stirring the pot its a very ugly situation and ugly things will happen. That is not an excuse for the soldiers action. Remember there was already a civil war raging before NATO intervened a civil war with civillian deaths and attrocities. |
And by intervening in the manner we did we made it better how? Sure some progress was made in infrastructure, and in women's rights, but after we leave how long will it last? How many civilians died for those fairly meager gains. You mention a civil war, but it was nothing to the extent that it is now. We can't occupy Afghanistan forever. When we leave the ISI won't let it become a blood bath. The last thing that Pakistan wants is for Afghanistan to become even more unstable. It will probably return to much like it was before. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
[
They weren't burned separately, so that's a non-issue. Also according to the articles I've seen much of that writing was simply religious notes, not secret communications. |
Link? |
"Dad also claimed the investigation had shown that some detainees had written their names, their father's names, their inmate identification numbers and the date they were detained in some of the books that were not destroyed. Some of the books written in Arabic also had definitions of Arabic words scribbled in Dari or Pashto, the two Afghan languages.
"I didn't see anything that suggested that messages were being exchanged between prisoners or with outsiders," he said."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/03/afghanistan-quran-burnings_n_1318297.html |
| Quote: |
| However, Maulvi Khaliq Dad, a top Afghan religious leader who was on a different panel appointed by President Hamid Karzai to investigate the incident, claimed the burning was intentional. |
So you are suggesting that a top Afghan religious leader is going to say ANYTHING that might be construed as not being 100% for the respect of his Holy Book? This guy is an extremist...you don't get to the top without being an extremist one way or the other.
And you know this person personally and KNOW he's telling the truth? You know for a fact that he wasn't misinformed? You know for a fact that he's not pushing an agenda?
This proves nothing. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| pkang0202 wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
Not if it were religious notes. Protests are always driven by the minority. Where are the misinformation and lies though? The korans were burned, innocents are killed both by rogue soldiers and air strikes, etc. etc. The U.S. backed leader is corrupt, I mean can you see no genuine concerns here? |
I see some Korans being burned due to human error.
I see one guy who lost his mind and shot up a bunch of civilians.
I do NOT see systematic abuses sanctioned by the higher ups that warrant the violent protests that are happening. I don't have any problems with protests. I do have a problem with people KILLING other people in the name of protest. |
Really? Know how many civilians our actions have killed? The U.S. has directly killed at least 6,215 - 9,007 and indirectly killed 29,007. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%93present)
. |
Gotta love it when the guy you are arguing against posts a link which destroys his own argument.
Look at the link. For EVERY year that we have estimations of civilians being killed by both U.S and insurgents forces...the insurgent tally is MUCH higher sometimes by multiples.
Let's look at 2010 for example
| Quote: |
2010
The UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA) and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission (AIHRC) attributed 2,080 Afghan civilian deaths as having been caused by anti-government elements in 2010, up 28% from 2009 and representing 74.9% of the 2,777 Afghan civilian deaths they recorded in the American-led war in 2010.[25][26]
The UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA) and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission (AIHRC) attributed 440 Afghan civilian deaths as having been caused by U.S.-led military forces in 2010, down 26% from 2009 and representing 15.9% of the 2,777 Afghan civilian deaths they recorded in the American-led war in 2010.[25][26]
The UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA) and the Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission (AIHRC) recorded 2,777 Afghan civilian deaths in the American-led war in 2010, a jump of 15% over the number killed in 2009. In 9% of the deaths, UNAMA and AIHRC were unable to clearly attribute the cause to any one side.[25][26] |
So we see quite clearly that about 75% of all civilian deaths were caused by the insurgents.
The Taliban caused this war by refusing to hand over the hijackers. And this war was internationally backed and sanctioned. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| [q Civilian deaths, and especially deaths of children, is a whole different thing. |
Then you should be blaming the Taliban.
http://jeffweintraub.blogspot.com/2010/08/who-is-killing-afghan-civilians-reality.html
| Quote: |
| Overall, there has been "a 31 per cent increase in conflict-related Afghan civilian casualties in the first six months of 2010 compared with the same period in 2009," including a 55% increase in killed and injured children. But this increase is entirely due to the Taliban. In fact, "[c]asualties attributed to Pro-Government Forces (PGF) fell 30 per cent during the same period," due primarily to a new policy of limiting the use of air strikes. Casualties attributable to the Taliban, on the other hand, have escalated dramatically. |
(bolding mine)
Oh and you do know that when the Taliban were coming to power in Afghanistan...that they were killing civilians (including women and children) LONG before the U.S ever became involved right?
Why no bleating about that?
| Quote: |
=> Of course, some people will respond that there would be no war in Afghanistan, and thus no civilian deaths, if the US had not invaded the country in 2001 and overthrown the Taliban. Thus, even the deaths of children executed by the Taliban are ultimately the fault of the US and its NATO allies, and the solution is to "end the war" by pulling out US/NATO troops.
Such people would be wrong. Before the 2001 US invasion, Afghans had already experienced two decades of uninterrupted warfare on a catastrophic scale, including a devastating civil war during the 1990s that culminated in the takeover of most of Afghanistan by one of most viciously repressive, reactionary, and stultifying regimes on earth. During that period, over a million Afghans died and millions more fled the country as refugees. After 2001, millions of those refugees came back home. As bad as conditions have been in Afghanistan since 2001, even since the renewed upsurge in armed conflict since around 2005, it is simply undeniable that the levels of death, destruction, and general misery were much higher during the 1980s or the 1990s. (Even the rates of infant mortality have fallen dramatically since the overthrow of the Taliban regime--from horrifying to merely awful. |
So over a million killed due DIRECTLY to the Taliban and infant mortality (those children you are oh so concerned about) is also down dramatically.
Seems like you should be backing the American invasion. |
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