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fosterman
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
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 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:40 am Post subject: Do employers have to pay you pension or not? |
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I was told by an after school program director that there will be no pension or medical expenses covered. I told him I think you have to pay into pension by law, he just waved me off and said no pension!
so my question is,
Do employers have the right to not offer pension if they want to?
and also that goes for severance pay? |
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Savant
Joined: 25 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 12:48 am Post subject: Re: Do employers have to pay you pension or not? |
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| fosterman wrote: |
| Do employers have the right to not offer pension if they want to? and also that goes for severance pay? |
Yes, they have the right to BS you with a reason not to pay into pension or health insurance.
I don't believe there is an opt out of option on an E-2 visa.
Just another Korean employer trying to cut costs by not following the law and screwing over the foreigner. |
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itistime
Joined: 23 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:06 am Post subject: |
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What they said. ^^^
Man up and don't let 'em take advantage of you.
I'm guessing you are at a hagwon?
Good luck |
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fosterman
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:48 am Post subject: |
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| itistime wrote: |
What they said. ^^^
Man up and don't let 'em take advantage of you.
I'm guessing you are at a hagwon?
Good luck |
NO, after school program I am f2 visa. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:15 am Post subject: |
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Let's look at the possibilities.
A Schools - Gives E2 visa with pension
B Schools - Gives F visa without pension
C Schools - Gives F visa with pension
A C school doesn't necessarily mean it's the best. You need to look at ALL conditions of the contract and the working/living environment before deciding.
If an A school gave me more money than B and C schools, I would take the A school. If a B school offered a decent salary and was better than an A school offer, I would take B (assuming no C school existed). If a C school offer was better than an A or B school, then I would only take a C school.
If you need someone else to determine which kind of school to choose, then I don't think you have looked into this enough and decided on your own what is best for you.
Also, if pension is legally owed to you, it is best not to bring it up during an interview. That just means either they already know about it and it is a moot point bringing it up, or they don't know about it and they will find some other way to recoup the losses making it harder for you to collect on. Make them prove to you they don't need to pay it if you are owed anything. Don't make it easier on them by shifting the problem to something negotiable instead of a legal obligation.
In short, it's not wise to come swinging during the interview.
Last edited by YTMND on Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:18 am; edited 1 time in total |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| fosterman wrote: |
| itistime wrote: |
What they said. ^^^
Man up and don't let 'em take advantage of you.
I'm guessing you are at a hagwon?
Good luck |
NO, after school program I am f2 visa. |
For all practical purposes, that's a hagweon.
One of my Korean friends is job hunting and the bosses all have said they "don't have the money to pay health and pension." The bosses do know the law; they simply don't care to follow it.
| YTMND wrote: |
| If a B school offered a decent salary and was better than an A school offer, I would take B |
And, one would hope, you would go at the very end of your contract to the Pension Office and get the pension issue fixed. One would also hope that you wisely set aside the appropriate amount of money for your contribution. The Pension Office will take the employer's contribution whether said employer likes it or not. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| And, one would hope, you would go at the very end of your contract to the Pension Office and get the pension issue fixed. One would also hope that you wisely set aside the appropriate amount of money for your contribution. The Pension Office will take the employer's contribution whether said employer likes it or not. |
That's a moral judgment. We should always have the recourse if necessary, but if they offered a decent salary under "negotiable terms"  then I would consider that monthly collection without the hassle of "legal obligation".
Sorry if this doesn't fit the attitude you should orchestrate everything while sitting opposite to the employer before you sign a contract, but I found flexibility the key. |
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CentralCali
Joined: 17 May 2007
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, I usually tend to consider someone cheating me by refusing to follow the employment laws to me immoral. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:27 am Post subject: Re: Do employers have to pay you pension or not? |
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| fosterman wrote: |
I was told by an after school program director that there will be no pension or medical expenses covered. I told him I think you have to pay into pension by law, he just waved me off and said no pension!
so my question is,
Do employers have the right to not offer pension if they want to?
and also that goes for severance pay? |
If you are working as an Independent Contractor then your school or program doesn't have to pay into the pension or health insurance, although you may have to make payments yourself. In this case you have to make 100% of the payments instead of splitting the payments with your employer.
Since you are on an F visa and this is a part time job, you are free to take other jobs in addition to this one, so it is quite easy for this to be a legal Independent contractor position - it still depends on your contract.
It is also well established that E2 visa holders can legally work as Independent Contractors if the contract is properly written. |
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OculisOrbis
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Do employers have to pay you pension or not? |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| It is also well established that E2 visa holders can legally work as Independent Contractors if the contract is properly written. |
bwah ha ha ha......yes, very well established....by you....it's just korean legislation (which states otherwise) and the korean courts that havent made their decision final yet.
South Africans are the only E2's that do not have to pay pension, but all E2's (and the people that sponsored their visas - which make them employers and you the employee) are supposed make contributions to health insurance. |
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OculisOrbis
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
That's a moral judgment. We should always have the recourse if necessary, but if they offered a decent salary under "negotiable terms" then I would consider that monthly collection without the hassle of "legal obligation".
Sorry if this doesn't fit the attitude you should orchestrate everything while sitting opposite to the employer before you sign a contract, but I found flexibility the key. |
I don't find murder morally objectionable, therefore, I am exempt from that law and any penalty that you claim goes with it since it's just a law..... |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I don't find murder morally objectionable, therefore, I am exempt from that law and any penalty that you claim goes with it since it's just a law..... |
1. This is an ESL forum, not homicide forensic forum.
2. I never claimed exemption from the law. I stated you enforce the law later. If you have a problem with this and want to enforce the law immediately, then explain things like the death penalty, due process, and sentencing.
3. We are not fully expatriates, we still own a passport and have to present this in order to obtain visas. When this changes, perhaps I will change my view on how I instill justice while I work. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And, one would hope, you would go at the very end of your contract to the Pension Office and get the pension issue fixed. One would also hope that you wisely set aside the appropriate amount of money for your contribution. The Pension Office will take the employer's contribution whether said employer likes it or not. |
That's a moral judgment. We should always have the recourse if necessary, but if they offered a decent salary under "negotiable terms" then I would consider that monthly collection without the hassle of "legal obligation".
Sorry if this doesn't fit the attitude you should orchestrate everything while sitting opposite to the employer before you sign a contract, but I found flexibility the key. |
It has nothing to do with a moral judgement. With the exception of South Africans and some university teachers pretty much all employees are required to be covered by pension. This is the law. Flexibility in this regard is breaking the law pure and simple.
And keep in mind that if the boss is flexible on this issue he is likely to be flexible on other issues (such as pay date and 11th month firings) |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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Flexibility in this regard is breaking the law pure and simple.
And keep in mind that if the boss is flexible on this issue he is likely to be flexible on other issues (such as pay date and 11th month firings) |
You are only looking at it with one perspective.
Option A - Get paid a lower salary and get pension. Collect this pension money 1 month after the contract period. Not everyone is going to want to stick around to collect from an unruly hagwon owner or impose on a friend to step in.
Option B - Get paid a higher salary each month without pension. No collection steps are necessary unless there is an 11th month firing or there are unpaid wage issues with the school. Both of these scenarios are strawman cases on your behalf. Are you sure you want to use these as your strongest card? Labor board doesn't support hagwons when it comes to these situations. On the other hand, I'll throw a bone. Airfare might be a bigger problem. Let's say the hagwon refuses to pay airfare and you can't convince labor board to step in. What insurance do you have to get that money? I would use pension as insurance in this case and get Option C without feeling morally "unsound".
Option C - Get paid a higher salary each month and get pension. The moral implication here is that you agreed to a higher salary so you didn't have to pay into the pension scheme yourself, collecting the funds instead on a monthly basis (minimizing overall loss at the end). I don't advocate this, but it is an option. I am laying all the cards on the table.
Remember this, if you are not the one in control dealing with moral dilemmas, then it is you that is being controlled and manipulated. Don't just sign a contract and assume everything is etched in stone and that nothing will go wrong. You need to walk softly and carry a big stick. When to strike is the moral dilemma. This is why I would choose Option B. |
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fosterman
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
Remember this, if you are not the one in control dealing with moral dilemmas, then it is you that is being controlled and manipulated. Don't just sign a contract and assume everything is etched in stone and that nothing will go wrong. You need to walk softly and carry a big stick. When to strike is the moral dilemma. This is why I would choose Option B. |
sure, I was just curious to know if by law Korean employers have to pay into pension or not. I mean the law is the law and if owners are breaking the laws just so they can save some bucks and screw me out of my money legally. then I am not down with that, regardless if I chose option B which was higher salary and no pension, if that's illegal I don't want any part of it.
and I don't think I want any part of a school who is offering employees to break the law. |
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