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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:30 pm Post subject: hypothetical situation (verb tense question) |
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Can someone please confirm the correct tenses for the two blanks below?
To be grammatically correct, is there only 1 possible tense for both blanks?
I seem to be finding conflicting information...
What would you do if you saw a car accident and a man was hurt?
First, I would call 911. Then, I would try to keep him calm until the ambulance _______. (come) When the ambulance ______ (arrive), I would tell the paramedics everything I knew.
Thank you. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| came, arrived |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for your reply. I thought the past should be used as well,
but a native speaker said the present should be used (comes/arrives),
especially in the 'when' clause. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Grammatically, they should both be past tense, but in regular conversation, I would suspect many switch to present tense (even with "would"), with no confusion resulting. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
a native speaker said the present should be used (comes/arrives),
especially in the 'when' clause. |
"When the ambulance arrives, I would tell the paramedics everything you know." (Someone else speaking to you)
In this case, you are waiting for the paramedics and someone thinks you don't want to tell them everything you know (maybe you know your spouse was in an argument with the victim and they might use this against them later on).
In the example you gave, you are stating a hypothetical that isn't going to happen in the near future. The example I gave illustrates something that is more likely to happen, and in that case you would use present tense. Depends on the context.
Textbooks will say to use past tense to make it simple, but there is gray area. It's not just a slip of the tongue without thinking. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| Quote: |
a native speaker said the present should be used (comes/arrives),
especially in the 'when' clause. |
"When the ambulance arrives, I would tell the paramedics everything you know." (Someone else speaking to you)
In this case, you are waiting for the paramedics and someone thinks you don't want to tell them everything you know (maybe you know your spouse was in an argument with the victim and they might use this against them later on).
In the example you gave, you are stating a hypothetical that isn't going to happen in the near future. The example I gave illustrates something that is more likely to happen, and in that case you would use present tense. Depends on the context.
Textbooks will say to use past tense to make it simple, but there is gray area. It's not just a slip of the tongue without thinking. |
In the example you gave, the conditional is actually "If I were you, I would tell the paramedics everything you know when the ambulance arrives" but the first part is left unsaid. That's why "would" is used in that sentence, and so it doesn't relate to the likelihood of the ambulance arriving or not. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| raewon wrote: |
Thanks for your reply. I thought the past should be used as well,
but a native speaker said the present should be used (comes/arrives),
especially in the 'when' clause. |
You were correct in your thinking.
The native speaker gave you some not so good advice.
'Could' be used...possibly.
'Should' be used...not in the original context.
As you mentioned it was a hypothetical...the past tense is correct usage for that context.
To make the present tense more applicable, you would need to make a few changes (ie. would- will/knew - know)
It would no longer be strictly hypothetical.
Of course, any change in context will allow for numerous answers to become possible.
But again, as for the original...the past tense is most appropriate and the present tense is inappropriate.
Perhaps you could ask the native speaker why they think the present tense is correct...especially in the dependent clause?
The position of the dependent clause does not influence the verb.
When the ambulance arrived, I would tell the paramedics everything (that) I knew.
I would tell the paramedics everything (that) I knew when the ambulance arrived.
(all past tense/hypothetical markers.)
There are just too many indicators suggesting that the present tense would create an awkward construction given the original context.
Hope this is useful. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:44 am Post subject: |
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Both can be correct. It is just a matter of how hypothetical or likely the situation and your response to the situation would be.
Since it's clearly meant to be a hypothetical situation, the past tense seems more appropriate.
BUT if this question was asked to someone who is very likely to be in such a situation, then they may use the present simple to state a simple fact. In other words although the questioner may consider it a hypothetical question, the person answering is so sure of his response (and likely feels that the situation will indeed occur eventually) that they can use the present simple - correctly. The question may be hypothetical, but that doesn't mean that the answer also has to be, in part or in whole. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
| Quote: |
a native speaker said the present should be used (comes/arrives),
especially in the 'when' clause. |
"When the ambulance arrives, I would tell the paramedics everything you know." (Someone else speaking to you)
In this case, you are waiting for the paramedics and someone thinks you don't want to tell them everything you know (maybe you know your spouse was in an argument with the victim and they might use this against them later on).
In the example you gave, you are stating a hypothetical that isn't going to happen in the near future. The example I gave illustrates something that is more likely to happen, and in that case you would use present tense. Depends on the context.
Textbooks will say to use past tense to make it simple, but there is gray area. It's not just a slip of the tongue without thinking. |
In the example you gave, the conditional is actually "If I were you, I would tell the paramedics everything you know when the ambulance arrives" but the first part is left unsaid. That's why "would" is used in that sentence, and so it doesn't relate to the likelihood of the ambulance arriving or not. |
In the example you gave, the conditional is actually "If I were you, I would yadda yadda yadda"
That is not entirely clear to me. We get so fixated on one line of interpretation. The ESL books may say one fixed rule for one grammar point because it is common ground for the native speaker and student to use those words.
In the example I gave I would have translated it to or understood it more like "You should yadda yadda yadda" not "If I were you yadda yadda yadda". In this case it's not really a hypothetical.
"Should is usually replaced, nowadays, by would. It is still used, however, to mean "ought to" as in" - http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/auxiliary.htm
Don't get me wrong, I take notes every day and compare them to the ESL world's established practice of teaching English. However, if a student is capable and likely to study abroad, we need to teach beyond the books' cookie cutter rules and regulations. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:52 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| However, if a student is capable and likely to study abroad, we need to teach beyond the books' cookie cut | | | |
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