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Do employers have to pay you pension or not?
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YTMND

Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 12:19 am Post subject:

Quote:

if owners are breaking the laws just so they can save some bucks and screw me out of my money legally

Quote:

I don't think I want any part of a school who is offering employees to break the law.

These two scenarios don't jive together. If a school does something legally, then they are not technically screwing you. In addition, following the law means you are protected up to the point there is a dispute. Option B is not illegal. You can always back pay pension. It's the collecting that makes the issue difficult because we are branded with this illogical and stupid label "expatriate" which gives countries the authority to kick us out but hold us to the responsibilities of the "law" of a country we are in. Either give us full membership or don't call us expatriates.

As an expatriate who cannot own property and live under any legal circumstance I could in my home country, I have to think of other ways to protect myself. If you don't want to, play the indentured servant role. Be called an expatriate, an assistant teacher, a professor in college (when in fact you are none of these). Find out what a contract says, follow it to the T, and then when you get screwed, lose out because you didn't prepare and plan ahead.

Your choice. Nova in Japan is a great example of a company that portrayed itself in good light, only to later crumble under its greedy handling of assets and its promises it could not keep. I doubt those teachers feel confident signing another contract without some insurance they will get what they are owed.

Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me.

ontheway

Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:46 am Post subject:

fosterman wrote:

YTMND wrote:

Remember this, if you are not the one in control dealing with moral dilemmas, then it is you that is being controlled and manipulated. Don't just sign a contract and assume everything is etched in stone and that nothing will go wrong. You need to walk softly and carry a big stick. When to strike is the moral dilemma. This is why I would choose Option B.

sure, I was just curious to know if by law Korean employers have to pay into pension or not. I mean the law is the law and if owners are breaking the laws just so they can save some bucks and screw me out of my money legally. then I am not down with that, regardless if I chose option B which was higher salary and no pension, if that's illegal I don't want any part of it.
and I don't think I want any part of a school who is offering employees to break the law.

It is perfectly legal to be an Independent Contractor in Korea. A large percentage - maybe half of all working Koreans - are self employed, work at family businesses, or ICs. It follows that those on F visas and E2 teachers are under the same rules. More and more, due to complaints of teachers, the rules have been made to be identical in effect, without regard to visa status - witness the elimination of the 30% tax exemption for foreign residents and CBCs for F visa holders who teach.

The key to the legality of your situation is your contract. If your contract states that you are an IC, then you are legally an IC and you should be treated accordingly. Likewise if your contract states that you are an employee.

There is an additional bit of ambiguity since the law lets the individual or organization that is contracting for your services to make the official declaration as to your status:

towtansua wrote:

The pension office says that they can't help because my boss registered me as an independent contractor [at the tax office] instead of as an employee. The tax office says they can't help me because it's between me and boss, and my contract doesn't matter ...

http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=218338&start=0

Thus, the regulatory agencies rely on your employer to follow the contract but they rely on you to take legal action when he doesn't follow the contract. As long as he is following the law, they don't really care about contract enforcement. Each regulatory agency has a limited jurisdiction. So, you need to make sure that you find a boss you can trust, maintain a good working relationship and be prepared to take legal action in court to enforce your contract if necessary.

Which means: If you don't trust your would-be boss - don't take the job.

The time to deal with all of this is during your negotiating stage, before you sign anything. Find out what your boss's plans are: will you be an employee or independent contractor? Your post seems to indicate that you boss intends for you to be an IC. This is perfectly legal if you follow the rules for ICs - including the rule that you must make the full Pension and Health Insurance payments yourself. Since you are on an F visa, this can be an advantage. If you can negotiate terms, perhaps you make sure that you make enough extra to make the full payments - if not, don't take the job. You should also be free to take on other work during your free hours, increasing your opportunity for additional income.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:22 pm Post subject:

YTMND wrote:

Quote:

Flexibility in this regard is breaking the law pure and simple.

And keep in mind that if the boss is flexible on this issue he is likely to be flexible on other issues (such as pay date and 11th month firings)

You are only looking at it with one perspective.

Option A - Get paid a lower salary and get pension. Collect this pension money 1 month after the contract period. Not everyone is going to want to stick around to collect from an unruly hagwon owner or impose on a friend to step in.

Option B - Get paid a higher salary each month without pension. No collection steps are necessary unless there is an 11th month firing or there are unpaid wage issues with the school. Both of these scenarios are strawman cases on your behalf. Are you sure you want to use these as your strongest card? Labor board doesn't support hagwons when it comes to these situations. On the other hand, I'll throw a bone. Airfare might be a bigger problem. Let's say the hagwon refuses to pay airfare and you can't convince labor board to step in. What insurance do you have to get that money? I would use pension as insurance in this case and get Option C without feeling morally "unsound".

Option C - Get paid a higher salary each month and get pension. The moral implication here is that you agreed to a higher salary so you didn't have to pay into the pension scheme yourself, collecting the funds instead on a monthly basis (minimizing overall loss at the end). I don't advocate this, but it is an option. I am laying all the cards on the table.

Remember this, if you are not the one in control dealing with moral dilemmas, then it is you that is being controlled and manipulated. Don't just sign a contract and assume everything is etched in stone and that nothing will go wrong. You need to walk softly and carry a big stick. When to strike is the moral dilemma. This is why I would choose Option B.

There is a difference between legality and morality. The latter does not apply to contracts only the former.

Option A. You don't collect the money from the hakwon owner you collect it from the pension office. And since in this option you stated that we are getting pension then there will be no problem. Just fill in the required documents and away you go.

Option B. Is illegal. Your call if you want to work illegally. Airfare is a contractual issue.

Option C. This makes no sense. Regardless of whether you make a higher or lower salary you still have to pay into pension in order to collect it. Not sure what you are trying to say here.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject:

YTMND wrote:

All countries have the ability to kick out people who are not citizens. And most people who live in countries other than their own are called expatriates. And most countries hold anyone living within their borders to the responsibilities of the law (diplomats and such excluded). Besides which we ARE expatriates...

And you are wrong. An expatriate in Korea can own property.

http://www.escapeartist.com/efam23/korea.html

Quote:

Those with computer programing skills would have the easiest time opening a small business. Restaurants are also be an option for the well-heeled expatriate. I know three people from England who have had success involving restaurants or restaurant supply. One opened an excellent cigar and wine bar, another got a job as a promotions manager of a large international hotel chain, and the last supplies restaurants with condiments. All have an enviable lifestyle in Korea. Other brave foreign residents have become involved with the entertainment industry and promote the �raves� or dance events they organize. All have had success in a place where the doomsayers say nothing ever gets done.

http://www.expatfinder.com/south-korea/articles/cost-of-living-in-seoul-ref604.html

Quote:

Buying a Property

While the law once banned non-Koreans from owning real estate property in Korea, this has changed today. Expatriates are now able to legally purchase real estate but they normally have to deal with prices that are way higher than what Korean citizens pay. The price difference can be reduced with the help of a local agent, but buying a house in Seoul is still something most expats contend with...

YTMND

Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 1:40 am Post subject:

Quote:

Option B. Is illegal. Your call if you want to work illegally. Airfare is a contractual issue.

If it is illegal, then why can you back pay pension? Do you also have to pay a penalty?

Quote:

Option C. This makes no sense. Regardless of whether you make a higher or lower salary you still have to pay into pension in order to collect it. Not sure what you are trying to say here.

If you look at the total of everything combined, you can shift money around. It does make sense.

Quote:

And you are wrong. An expatriate in Korea can own property.

I didn't say all expatriates couldn't. I was stating a first time E2 visa holder. How many own property?

It's up to you if you want to make sense of this or not. There are 99% more ways to interpret what I said the wrong way.

Have fun being molded by the rules and regulations of your superiors. Presidents and other leaders get to leave and come back freely on our dime from various countries. They like to ignore rules when it satisfies their needs, but enforce them on others.

Your quotes illustrate we are not treated equally. If you are brainwashed to follow within their lines and you like it great, live like that. I am not posting to change anyone's mind, just make them think. After you think, you decide how you want to live on this planet and who and what you want to obey.

rowdie3

Joined: 22 Sep 2003
Location: Itaewon, Seoul

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 3:12 am Post subject:

I have never heard of an afterschool program paying pension or medical. At least not the 1-5pm kind. The ones that start at 11am tend to. You can always set up your own medical. Think of the high pay/short hours as a good trade off.

YTMND

Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!

Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:17 pm Post subject:

rowdie3 wrote:

I have never heard of an afterschool program paying pension or medical. At least not the 1-5pm kind. The ones that start at 11am tend to. You can always set up your own medical. Think of the high pay/short hours as a good trade off.

Despite the direction of my earlier comments, yes, afterschool programs do have to pay you pension if you are an employee. My last job was doing afterschool classes at a public school. I went to the pension office, and they didn't have a total. I asked them how much, and they either did some calculations or gave me the current balance. When I finally got it a month later, it was higher. So, I am thinking they only gave me a current balance paid.

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