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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Patrick Bateman wrote: |
| [ If you want to look down on someone who likes a certain type of music that you don't like, I think that does speak volumes about character. |
Agreed. People are different and like different types of music.
And I also agree with Mr.mayorgc about music snobs. |
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adzee1
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| The Korean government is heavily involved in the marketing of K-pop. |
No, its not. The companies are heavily involved. The government throws some money at marketing it overseas and has a censor board that bans videos that are little more than clothed softcore porn.
They don't push the message. The message responds to the audience. It's bling-bling and sex. Now, that's not a uniquely Korean marketing approach. People like to admire people who look good and have money.
Back in the 90s the biggest KPop groups all put progressive social lyrics in their music. Their songs ranged from topics such as school bullying, women's issues, social inequality, and more.
Now I will agree the KPop has become more vapid these days. However I think you are putting way too much stock into the "social control". There isn't some hidden panel of the Korean Illuminati twiddling their mustaches and planning how to unleash KPop on an unsuspecting populace. It's a bunch of marketing people trying to make as much money as possible and if they guess wrong they get sacked.
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| It's not really an issue of animosity, it's a "I stopped listening to that stuff when I was 15, you're over 25 and you still listen to the top of the pop charts, really?" type of thing. It's an issue of standards, growth, and progression. It's similar to reading. You hit Kerouac when you're 16, Hemingway, Thoreau, Orwell, Joyce, J. Thompson, D'Souza, or whatever your personal progression may be. You keep moving on. An adult who listens to K-pop is in line with the guy who never made it to Kerouac because he never progressed past Harry Potter. |
This reminds me of a quote from Bruce Lee- "When I began studying a kick was just a kick, a punch was just a punch. As I grew a kick became more than a kick, a punch more than a punch. Now I realize a kick is just a kick, a punch is just a punch."
The point is that some of us have been where you are and had that mentality and then realized the limitations and that we were missing the "essence" of things. Maybe you'll get there in a few years time, when you finally get tired of being angry and bitter and realize that your snobbery doesn't make you better than anyone else in reality.
Put it this way, odds are at one point you'll be in a bed, being tended to by someone who has to sponge you, but does it with a smile. Odds are they won't listen to "your" music. At that point you'll realize that all your great books and music and movies don't mean jack.
The goal of music is not to listen to better music than someone else, nor to listen to it because it is supposed to be "good music". Ultimately you listen to music because you enjoy it, to respond to it, and to experience the emotions that the performer expresses. That's it. Music can be used to separate yourself from the masses. It also can be used to bring wide swaths of people together.
And again, people can still listen to "great" music AND not be opposed to the occasional foot-tapping pop tune.
You talk about progression in taste, what I'm suggesting is maybe you need to start progressing in your social interaction. As I've repeatedly said, I have encountered way too many people in life whose character I've respected who weren't into "great" music or movies. Their tastes were different.
There is always something someone can look down on you for. I'm sure I could find something and label you "childish" because of it. Food? Movies? Dress? Exercise? Hygiene? Cleanliness of one's house? Career? Financial Awareness? Education? Charity? Career Development?
Also, there is a difference between good taste and snobbery.
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| and can equally determine the state of mental effectiveness one is able to achieve throughout the long haul of life itself. |
I think one's mental effectiveness is also affected by not getting into accidents or contracting conditions/diseases. All your great music can't save you from a drunk driver or Alzheimer's. At that point even the blandest Kpop tool is more enjoyable than your drooling vegetable butt. But that won't happen to you of course, because you say so and listen to great music.
So lets hear about the great jfromtheway's life and your philosophy in detail.
Frankly the way you write about things is pseudo-religious. Only people who share your view "advance their souls". The masses are deceived and beyond hope. Indeed, they are almost evil and deserve to be belittled. jfromtheway has the one true answer. The masses should acknowledge the greatness of jfromtheway's music (and incidentally, jfromtheeway himself), but since they don't, they're the herd. However enjoy music as he does, and enjoy his music, and thou shalt receive his blessing.
As I've repeatedly said, and you've repeatedly ignored, which qualities are more important to making someone a "good" person.
A)Music
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B)Generosity, Charity, Compassion, Honesty, Humility, Gentleness, Kindness, Patience, and the like.
The fact that you seem to put more stock in A makes me question that mental effectiveness and development. |
Quite a lot of your message is long and unnecessary so I will respond to the parts in bold.
Music that sells itself on "bling" and "sex" from any country in my opinion is weak and will have a limited shelf life. Sure it might make some decent money for the record company and the artist but on the whole most rationale people will see through the marketing facade and realise that musically its not very good.
The part about being in bed and realising that the person tending to you doesnt like the same music as you is quite frankly strange. I will not care whether that person likes the same music / books as me, Its not something which I will sit and reflect on like an achievement, I will however be satisfied that during my life I listened to good music which I enjoyed and read books which I enjoyed and which were artistically inspiring, i doubt you will be on your deathbed thinking about your favourite Kpop tune.
Your next point, I have said several times I dont listen to music because I think its cool or to fit it, I listen to it because it evokes feeling and emotion and brings me pleasure, YOU on the other hand did say that you learn Kpop tunes so YOU can fit in at the noreabang and not feel left out.
There is also nothing angry or bitter about my opinion, I am not angry if you choose to listen to music aimed at teenage girls, but if I choose to say you have poor taste it makes YOU bitter and angry. If you told me I had poor taste in music I wouldnt really care one little bit.
The qualities you listen in a person are slightly biased dont you think ?
How about these two sets of people:
A) Generous, Honest, Kind, Funny, Loyal, Intelligent, Good taste in music / film
B) Immature, Boring, Charitable, Kpop fan |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| The part about being in bed and realising that the person tending to you doesnt like the same music as you is quite frankly strange. I will not care whether that person likes the same music / books as me, |
That's the point. The person may listen to Kpop, but if they are the only one's in the world that are wiping your butt for you, I think its a bit much to look down on them and label them a "tool" or say they are immature.
At that point maybe all of your "good music" buddies have left you there. Maybe its that random friend who listens to bad music who drops by and says "hi" to your bed-ridden butt.
Point is, given the situation, "good taste" becomes a lot less important of a quality to look for in people.
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| Your next point, I have said several times I dont listen to music because I think its cool or to fit it, I listen to it because it evokes feeling and emotion and brings me pleasure |
Right, so if someone listens to whatever music for that reason, why be so judgmental?
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| YOU on the other hand did say that you learn Kpop tunes so YOU can fit in at the noreabang and not feel left out |
I said that is one of the benefits of listening to Kpop, not one of the reasons. We are in Korea. Many people listen to Kpop. Noraebang is a social event and is also part of business culture. Knowing those songs makes it easier to make connections.
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| If you told me I had poor taste in music I wouldnt really care one little bit |
Then why do you care so much about other people having poor taste in music.
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A) Generous, Honest, Kind, Funny, Loyal, Intelligent, Good taste in music / film
B) Immature, Boring, Charitable, Kpop fan |
How about this-
A) Generous, Honest, Kpop Fan
B) Immature, Boring, Good Taste in Music
That's the whole bloody point!!! What music you listen to has nothing to do with the other qualities. I've met people who listen to KPop who are very mature. I've met people who listen to good music who are immature. Why such the focus on music as determining whether someone is a worthwhile person?
As I've said before, there is one group of people out there who are notorious for using music as a method of judgment: Adolescents. Most adults just don't care what music you're into because they are too busy dealing with jobs or raising children and looking after their family. When you're at that point you look more at trustworthiness and reliability than taste in music. |
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adzee1
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| The part about being in bed and realising that the person tending to you doesnt like the same music as you is quite frankly strange. I will not care whether that person likes the same music / books as me, |
That's the point. The person may listen to Kpop, but if they are the only one's in the world that are wiping your butt for you, I think its a bit much to look down on them and label them a "tool" or say they are immature.
At that point maybe all of your "good music" buddies have left you there. Maybe its that random friend who listens to bad music who drops by and says "hi" to your bed-ridden butt.
Point is, given the situation, "good taste" becomes a lot less important of a quality to look for in people.
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| Your next point, I have said several times I dont listen to music because I think its cool or to fit it, I listen to it because it evokes feeling and emotion and brings me pleasure |
Right, so if someone listens to whatever music for that reason, why be so judgmental?
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| YOU on the other hand did say that you learn Kpop tunes so YOU can fit in at the noreabang and not feel left out |
I said that is one of the benefits of listening to Kpop, not one of the reasons. We are in Korea. Many people listen to Kpop. Noraebang is a social event and is also part of business culture. Knowing those songs makes it easier to make connections.
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| If you told me I had poor taste in music I wouldnt really care one little bit |
Then why do you care so much about other people having poor taste in music.
| Quote: |
A) Generous, Honest, Kind, Funny, Loyal, Intelligent, Good taste in music / film
B) Immature, Boring, Charitable, Kpop fan |
How about this-
A) Generous, Honest, Kpop Fan
B) Immature, Boring, Good Taste in Music
That's the whole bloody point!!! What music you listen to has nothing to do with the other qualities. I've met people who listen to KPop who are very mature. I've met people who listen to good music who are immature. Why such the focus on music as determining whether someone is a worthwhile person?
As I've said before, there is one group of people out there who are notorious for using music as a method of judgment: Adolescents. Most adults just don't care what music you're into because they are too busy dealing with jobs or raising children and looking after their family. When you're at that point you look more at trustworthiness and reliability than taste in music. |
About the person tending to me in old age, maybe they will like Kpop and if they do I will happily tell them they have bad taste in music. Although I dont think that it will be that person popping by because none of my close friends do listen to that kind of stuff. Like I said before good taste is not something I look for in a person, it has just worked out that the people who I am close friends with are not into lame pop music.
Your next point about being judgmental over people for whom Kpop brings pleasure. If people are so easily manipulated by something so weak then I dont think I will have a great deal in common with them, yes I will be nice to them and civil but the chance of developing a long lasting friendship I think is slim. The same goes for overly religious people, yes i will be nice to them but after a while i tire of listening to people talk things which I find pointless such as Pop music and religion.
Just because I am in Korea, doesnt mean I have to have the same tastes as they do. Thats a poor reason to justify liking something, so you can make connections at the noreabang  If it involves listening to and singing Kpop, I would rather not have those connections to be honest.
Your final point about the personal qualities, yes I know people too who are bad people and have bad qualities who listen to good music, I also know lots of people who display the positive qualities you mentioned and listen to good music.
That wasnt my point, which was that ALL the people I know who listen to manufactured pop music have bad taste, are easily manipulated and based on my past experiences I would be extremely unlikely to form a lasting friendship with such a person.
Maybe one day I will be proved wrong but so far it hasnt happened. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Not sure why anyone is bothering to entertain debate on the validity of judging someone by their musical taste with someone who has regularly rained down judgement on people for their dress, age, and college major. |
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jfromtheway
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah, there's not much point in entertaining derails, dude is too far gone. If you consider that people like him and Myth are (I believe) in their 40s or something, working in public schools in the middle of no where, who appear to have no marital prospects or social life, and spend all day creeping around blindly defending Korea on an internet forum, it becomes easier to realize how life pushes out some seriously warped individuals. I mean, to make a life out of that... it makes me shutter inside just thinking about it. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| That's the point. The person may listen to Kpop, but if they are the only one's in the world that are wiping your butt for you, I think its a bit much to look down on them and label them a "tool" or say they are immature |
If you were a champion sumo wrestler you could probably insist that only the trainees who detested k pop were allowed to wipe your butt, thus ensuring your back passage was a 'tool' free zone.  |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| If you consider that people like him and Myth are (I believe) in their 40s or something, working in public schools in the middle of no where, who appear to have no marital prospects or social life |
Wrong on all of them except working in PS in the middle of nowhere, which by the way, I enjoy.
I'm in my 20s, have ended two relationships since I've come to Korea because the girl wanted to get married and I didn't, and between my current town, Seoul, and friends around Korea, have too much crap getting thrown my way on facebook to deal with and not burn out.
It's fun to argue on Dave's. People here are often times entertaining. And it doesn't take much effort.
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| Not sure why anyone is bothering to entertain debate on the validity of judging someone by their musical taste with someone who has regularly rained down judgement on people for their dress, age, and college major. |
Well this is true. In the case of things like Tom's shoes or whatnot I can get snobbish. However I don't take it too seriously in actually judging their character (though having a complete aversion to donning a suit is just a bit of a WTH). Age, yeah young people tend to be stupid. And as for majors, as a fellow Liberal Arts major I don't think I can be too snooty about that, just I don't care for people who whine about not having money when they chose to do Classical Studies.
But no, I'd never seriously use shoes or age or major as a decider in a person's moral character to the degree that some of the music snobs have here. I certainly wouldn't put it in near as absolute terms. For the record I have known plenty of good people with bad fashion, of all ages, and of differing majors as well as jerks with good fashion, of old age, and of whatever major.
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| About the person tending to me in old age, maybe they will like Kpop and if they do I will happily tell them they have bad taste in music. |
I think the person wiping your butt and changing your bed pan > Your good taste in music.
There's this thing called humility. When you don't have control over your own bodily functions, its generally considered good forum not to berate them for their taste in music.
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| If people are so easily manipulated by something so weak then I dont think I will have a great deal in common with them, yes I will be nice to them and civil but the chance of developing a long lasting friendship I think is slim. |
I think you're putting way to much stock into things. Sometimes a tune is just a tune. No one is being manipulated.
I have a question, say your favorite song was written by some corporate machine and the artist who you thought wrote it and performed was not the person at all. Would it cease to be your favorite song? Was it the artist's back story that made you enjoy the song or was it the musical components? Why should that song become any less just because it was assembled in a different manner? At some point someone had to put it all together, someone had to perform it.
It's a bit like going to some restaurant that advertises the food being made by a famous chef. Let's call them Chef Linguine. You love the food and sing Chef Linguine's praises. Now it turns out that it wasn't Chef Linguine at all. It was Paco Dominguez, illegal alien in the kitchen. Do you suddenly say the food was bad because it was fraudulently presented? What if Chef Dominguez simply copied his brother's recipe from back home? Which is the actual essence- The taste or the circumstances?
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| Thats a poor reason to justify liking something, so you can make connections at the noreabang If it involves listening to and singing Kpop, I would rather not have those connections to be honest. |
Again, you have trouble reading. I did not say that that justified it, I said that that was one of the good things that comes along with it. Like a garnish.
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| I also know lots of people who display the positive qualities you mentioned and listen to good music. |
So you don't know ANYONE who has many positive qualities and has bad taste in music?
If so, I can't help but wonder if you have truly seen as much of the world as you think you have or B) That you really do judge people based on music. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:16 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| The Korean government is heavily involved in the marketing of K-pop. |
No, its not. The companies are heavily involved. The government throws some money at marketing it overseas and has a censor board that bans videos that are little more than clothed softcore porn.
They don't push the message. The message responds to the audience. It's bling-bling and sex. Now, that's not a uniquely Korean marketing approach. People like to admire people who look good and have money.
Back in the 90s the biggest KPop groups all put progressive social lyrics in their music. Their songs ranged from topics such as school bullying, women's issues, social inequality, and more.
Now I will agree the KPop has become more vapid these days. However I think you are putting way too much stock into the "social control". There isn't some hidden panel of the Korean Illuminati twiddling their mustaches and planning how to unleash KPop on an unsuspecting populace. It's a bunch of marketing people trying to make as much money as possible and if they guess wrong they get sacked.
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I don't blame u for being unaware of how deeply involved the K-gov't is with mainstream media/entertainment.
Sometimes a hint of how well coordinated they are surfaces-
President Lee Myung Bak�s 84th Radio Address:
Ladies and Gentleman, Good Morning. In the previous weeks I have visited many countries around the Middle East, starting with Turkey and then moving to Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the UAE. If we have economic cooperation with these countries I feel as though we can achieve even more than can be expected.
This is the first trip to Turkey I have made since the world economy went into a state of crisis. Here we have many opportunities for Korean companies to look into participating in business.
In addition, Turkey decided to agree to a FTA agreement with Korea, and due to sensitive items related to agriculture and small business, the possible of the conclusion of the agreement between our two countries will be made as soon as possible.
In Turkey, Korea�s hottest young stars are greatly loved and we think that is the biggest asset to the future of Korean culture [in Turkey]. JYJ�s Kim Jaejoong attended a meeting with the Turkish Youth along with me and received an enthusiastic welcome.
http://www.dkpopnews.net/2012/02/trans-translation-of-south-korea.html
Additionally, the K-gov't micromanages to the extent of sending gov't officials to monitor events and festivals in Hongdae. I was at an art festival a few years back. An avante-gardish guitarist was pushing the envelope, and it was refreshing to see something out of the ordinary...the middle-ageish official agitatedly bekoned to the festival director and indicated he wanted the guitarist's amp volume down pronto...the director obliged...and the guitarist promptly flipped it back up and finished off the composition, to the delighted cheers of the crowd  |
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jfromtheway
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:10 am Post subject: |
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You're in your 20s and routinely trashing "young(er)" people? I'm surprised to hear that. I thought you were over 40, and also thought that I had suggested that I believed you were previously, without objection. Your writing has seemed to indicate an individual who would be ungodly immature for a person in their 40s. But I guess that makes more sense.
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| It's fun to argue on Dave's. People here are often times entertaining. And it doesn't take much effort. |
This might offer you some insight into your stubborn, polemical stances, not to mention the constant outside questioning of, and allusions to, your apparent character as a humanoid on the internet. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Sometimes a hint of how well coordinated they are surfaces-
President Lee Myung Bak�s 84th Radio Address:
Ladies and Gentleman, Good Morning. In the previous weeks I have visited many countries around the Middle East, starting with Turkey and then moving to Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and the UAE. If we have economic cooperation with these countries I feel as though we can achieve even more than can be expected.
This is the first trip to Turkey I have made since the world economy went into a state of crisis. Here we have many opportunities for Korean companies to look into participating in business.
In addition, Turkey decided to agree to a FTA agreement with Korea, and due to sensitive items related to agriculture and small business, the possible of the conclusion of the agreement between our two countries will be made as soon as possible.
In Turkey, Korea�s hottest young stars are greatly loved and we think that is the biggest asset to the future of Korean culture [in Turkey]. JYJ�s Kim Jaejoong attended a meeting with the Turkish Youth along with me and received an enthusiastic welcome. |
Dude, that isn't hardcore in with the government. That's the President and a celebrity meeting up at a media moment.
What, our government leaders from back home and celebrities never cross paths or promote things overseas together?
You think 2MB and the Government were all in some secret facility training JYJ to send some sort of economic policy message in his music?
"Yo Yo Yo its JYJ telling Turkey they gotta sign that FTA! Put Yo Hands Up Yo! Put Yo Hands Up Yo!"
Please.
Which is more likely,
A) That JYJ was trained to be ministers of economic activity and brewed up in the government lab for this.
B) Some Higher up decided to bring along some pop act to give the whole things some publicity and called up the record companies and asked them to send someone over on a goodwill mission.
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| You're in your 20s and routinely trashing "young(er)" people? I'm surprised to hear that. I thought you were over 40, and also thought that I had suggested that I believed you were previously, without objection. Your writing has seemed to indicate an individual who would be ungodly immature for a person in their 40s. But I guess that makes more sense. |
Ha. The person who judges manliness and character based on musical taste is calling me immature.
What exactly about my argument is immature? |
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adzee1
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Ha. The person who judges manliness and character based on musical taste is calling me immature.
What exactly about my argument is immature? |
Your refusal to accept that Kpop is made for teenage girls and weak, easily manipulated people... Whilst at the same time you are probably dancing in front of the mirror to the latest Girls Generation video, lip syncing the lyrics so you can make " connections" the next time you go to the noreabang. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| adzee1 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Ha. The person who judges manliness and character based on musical taste is calling me immature.
What exactly about my argument is immature? |
Your refusal to accept that Kpop is made for teenage girls and weak, easily manipulated people... Whilst at the same time you are probably dancing in front of the mirror to the latest Girls Generation video, lip syncing the lyrics so you can make " connections" the next time you go to the noreabang. |
Not all Kpop is made for teenage girls. Not all people who enjoy it are those who are weak or easily manipulated. Liking the occasional song does not make someone weak-minded.
And why is it that anyone who listens to Kpop must then be dancing in the mirror to SNSD and buying posters and lipsynching lyrics.
And again, The noraebang is a fringe benefit, not a reason. Why is it so hard for you to mentally grasp that concept?
True or false, Koreans socialize and indeed do business events at the noraebang.
True or false, business events are a way to network.
True or false, having passing familiarity with the tunes would help you relate and mingle with the people at the event.
True or false, relating and mingling help you to network with people.
True or false, networking helps your career and professional development.
True or false, career and professional development is in my best interests.
Or just blather on about how I'm a child and its all about some social clique thing. Goes with the high school-esqe views of music. |
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adzee1
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| adzee1 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
Ha. The person who judges manliness and character based on musical taste is calling me immature.
What exactly about my argument is immature? |
Your refusal to accept that Kpop is made for teenage girls and weak, easily manipulated people... Whilst at the same time you are probably dancing in front of the mirror to the latest Girls Generation video, lip syncing the lyrics so you can make " connections" the next time you go to the noreabang. |
Not all Kpop is made for teenage girls. Not all people who enjoy it are those who are weak or easily manipulated. Liking the occasional song does not make someone weak-minded.
And why is it that anyone who listens to Kpop must then be dancing in the mirror to SNSD and buying posters and lipsynching lyrics.
And again, The noraebang is a fringe benefit, not a reason. Why is it so hard for you to mentally grasp that concept?
True or false, Koreans socialize and indeed do business events at the noraebang.
True but they also socialise and network in other places or sing non Kpop songs at the Noreabang
True or false, business events are a way to network.
Yes business events are a way to network, I have never in my life been to a business event that involves listening to Kpop though and I doubt I every will.
True or false, having passing familiarity with the tunes would help you relate and mingle with the people at the event.
I am perfectly capable of mingling with people without knowing the words to Kpop songs, maybe talk about something else ?
True or false, relating and mingling help you to network with people.
See above
True or false, networking helps your career and professional development.
Again something I am capable of doing without reducing myself to teenage tastes
True or false, career and professional development is in my best interests.
Depends what you currently have and what you seek in your future years. I would be interested to hear from a single person ( not in the music industry) who could say that learning Kpop has been of benefit to their career
Or just blather on about how I'm a child and its all about some social clique thing. Goes with the high school-esqe views of music. |
If you claim all Kpop is not made for teenagers please provide me with links for your 3 favourite Kpop tunes which exhibit musical talent and show that the genre is not a complete joke. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Come on, he means knowing the words to some K pop songs is a way of ingratiating yourself with a Korean you might want to do business with. Yes there are plenty of other ways too. But generally Koreans love it when you can show you know something about their culture and a lot of Ajoshis like K Pop. (mainly I suspect because it's Korean, supposedly famous all over the world and they like ogling the young girls rather than anything to do with music.) |
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