| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
|
 Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:39 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| In one context, the speaker's actions can be considered hypothetical while the arrival of ambulances is an undisputable fact. If the arrival of an ambulance is considered a given fact, i.e. something that is guaranteed to happen because it always happens that way (at least in the mind of the speaker)...etc... |
But once again, this is a hypothetical situation...there are no facts required to be fabricated here.
Nothing always happens that way, and nothing is going to happen that way.
It's all hypothetical...from every perspective...one context...hypothetical situation.
| Quote: |
| Even if it's hypothetical, it still depends on how it's viewed by the speaker. |
There is no 'speaker'...it looks as though this is a test question.
At best there is a student who has read that this is a hypothetical situation and is trying to figure out which is the proper verb tense to use in 'hypothetical situations'.
Even if we concede the 'speaker'...even the speaker has been told that this is a hypothetical situation...facts not required.
Our imaginary speaker...is being asked a test question...which is what verb tense is best used in hypothetical situations?
No one is denying that if the context were changed... to make it non-hypothetical, partially hypothetical, or even speaker perspective partially hypothetical...etc...then many answers are possible.
That point was made early on in the thread. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think we've done a good job of complicating a pretty simple question.
From a purely grammatical stand-point (and in the context of a test question) the only acceptable answer is to use the past tense. Again this is following the rules of grammar related to conditional sentences, particularly the second conditional.
We all know that native speakers routinely break grammar rules when the context is clear in the course of the conversation, but that was not the case in the example given. The person who told the OP it should be present tense was wrong and gave bad advice.
The end. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| transmogrifier wrote: |
I think we've done a good job of complicating a pretty simple question.
From a purely grammatical stand-point (and in the context of a test question) the only acceptable answer is to use the past tense. Again this is following the rules of grammar related to conditional sentences, particularly the second conditional.
We all know that native speakers routinely break grammar rules when the context is clear in the course of the conversation, but that was not the case in the example given. The person who told the OP it should be present tense was wrong and gave bad advice.
The end. |
Cheers to that...now get some sleep...lol  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
I think we've done a good job of complicating a pretty simple question.
From a purely grammatical stand-point (and in the context of a test question) the only acceptable answer is to use the past tense. Again this is following the rules of grammar related to conditional sentences, particularly the second conditional.
We all know that native speakers routinely break grammar rules when the context is clear in the course of the conversation, but that was not the case in the example given. The person who told the OP it should be present tense was wrong and gave bad advice.
The end. |
Cheers to that...now get some sleep...lol |
Watching Liverpool lose yet again makes me do silly things...like commenting on messageboards about grammar. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
yoda
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Location: Incheon, South Korea
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
In hypothetical situations, the conditions that set the hypothetical situation are in past tense, but the results that follow are usually would + verb (though could+verb, might +verb are also possible).
Conditions:
Accident
Ambulance not arrived.
Hypothetical Results/Hypothetical Consequences:
Try to keep him calm. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| In one context, the speaker's actions can be considered hypothetical while the arrival of ambulances is an undisputable fact. If the arrival of an ambulance is considered a given fact, i.e. something that is guaranteed to happen because it always happens that way (at least in the mind of the speaker)...etc... |
But once again, this is a hypothetical situation...there are no facts required to be fabricated here.
Nothing always happens that way, and nothing is going to happen that way.
It's all hypothetical...from every perspective...one context...hypothetical situation.
| Quote: |
| Even if it's hypothetical, it still depends on how it's viewed by the speaker. |
There is no 'speaker'...it looks as though this is a test question.
At best there is a student who has read that this is a hypothetical situation and is trying to figure out which is the proper verb tense to use in 'hypothetical situations'.
Even if we concede the 'speaker'...even the speaker has been told that this is a hypothetical situation...facts not required.
Our imaginary speaker...is being asked a test question...which is what verb tense is best used in hypothetical situations?
No one is denying that if the context were changed... to make it non-hypothetical, partially hypothetical, or even speaker perspective partially hypothetical...etc...then many answers are possible.
That point was made early on in the thread. |
Both variations are hypothetical. Both are grammatically correct. Both correctly answer the question presented in the original post.
Whether something is 'always' true is simply a matter of the speaker (or writer - you seem fixated on the fact that it's likely a written test) and his point of view or state of mind when creating a sentence. If you want to take the extreme view that nothing is in fact absolute or always the same way or always guaranteed to happen, then we'd never use the present simple (at least not in it's common usage). We don't really know with 100% certainty that our daily habits will never change, do we? We can't even say with 100% certainty that the sun will rise in the East from now until the end of time. There is an incredibly slim change that some major disaster will occur and change the Earth's rotation. But sane people don't really look at it that way. WE chose our grammar based on a gut instinct. I've woken up at 8am for the last 2 years, so I'm pretty sure that i'll keep doing it therefore I'll use the present tense when asked about my sleep habits. I wake up at 8am.
The speaker (or writer) can hypothesize about their reaction to an accident, but they may view ambulance arrival reliability to be guaranteed and independent of their hypothetical reaction to the accident. Their opinion of how THEY would react is still hypothetical. using 'comes' and 'arrives' is still correct. The context has not be changed. If the examiner wanted to solicit both clauses in the past tense, he'd have to specify a situation where it's clearly not guaranteed that the ambulance would arrive. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
|
| Posted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The problem is, the ambulance won't arrive because the entire situation is made-up. In fact, there is no ambulance. Cue spooky music.
Anyway, the correct answer is came/arrived. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| transmogrifier wrote: |
The problem is, the ambulance won't arrive because the entire situation is made-up. In fact, there is no ambulance. Cue spooky music.
Anyway, the correct answer is came/arrived. |
That's your opinion.
Does the same applies to works of fiction as well? They are completely made up. Should they therefore be written in an unreal tense? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 2:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
The problem is, the ambulance won't arrive because the entire situation is made-up. In fact, there is no ambulance. Cue spooky music.
Anyway, the correct answer is came/arrived. |
That's your opinion.
Does the same applies to works of fiction as well? They are completely made up. Should they therefore be written in an unreal tense? |
No. Why would they? Works of fiction are not based on a conditional situation that requires a response. But since you bring it up, most works of fiction are written in past tense, which is co-incidentally the correct answer to the original question. So maybe you are onto something here. Bravo! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
The problem is, the ambulance won't arrive because the entire situation is made-up. In fact, there is no ambulance. Cue spooky music.
Anyway, the correct answer is came/arrived. |
That's your opinion.
Does the same applies to works of fiction as well? They are completely made up. Should they therefore be written in an unreal tense? |
No. Why would they? Works of fiction are not based on a conditional situation that requires a response. But since you bring it up, most works of fiction are written in past tense, which is co-incidentally the correct answer to the original question. So maybe you are onto something here. Bravo! |
The fact that most stories are unreal is not the reason for being written using a past tense. Non-fiction stories also use past tenses. They use the past tense because....... wait for it.... they take place in the past (relative to the narrators point of view, at least).
You should go to the library and check out an introductory textbook on linguistics. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
The problem is, the ambulance won't arrive because the entire situation is made-up. In fact, there is no ambulance. Cue spooky music.
Anyway, the correct answer is came/arrived. |
That's your opinion.
Does the same applies to works of fiction as well? They are completely made up. Should they therefore be written in an unreal tense? |
No. Why would they? Works of fiction are not based on a conditional situation that requires a response. But since you bring it up, most works of fiction are written in past tense, which is co-incidentally the correct answer to the original question. So maybe you are onto something here. Bravo! |
The fact that most stories are unreal is not the reason for being written using a past tense. Non-fiction stories also use past tenses. They use the past tense because....... wait for it.... they take place in the past (relative to the narrators point of view, at least).
You should go to the library and check out an introductory textbook on linguistics. |
Or better yet, how about we just agree that the obvious answer to the original question was that it was past tense, and that you are silly to assume my previous comment was grounded in actual fact - I would have thought the use of the word "coincidentally" would have clued you into the fact that I was not making any genuine connection between the use of past in a novel and its use in hypotheticals.
So how about you go get a dictionary and look up that word, and I'll go get that book on linguistics? That way, we both win. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
