Korean Job Discussion Forums

[2i2dk1ny2i3]

i used to be against Corporal Punishment but after coming back to Korea, i think i would support it to kinda "whip" the country back into shape


i'm not talking about "fighting" children but dishing out spankings or other forms like holding a dictionary over your head for 30 mins.


so my question, are you for or against it and would like opinions and reasons

[fermentation]

Against. It's a matter of effectiveness. Trainers don't hit dogs because there are much more effective ways of training them. By hitting children, you're basically treating them worse than a dog. I think it's morally questionable for a grown adult to beat a child.

[Dodge7]

FOR!
When you take corporal punishment out of the schools, the kids feel invincible and impervious to the schools' rules.
The degradation of society starts when people aren't afraid of the repercussions of their actions. Let's face it, we've all seen these bratty, loud and obnoxious Korean kids up close and personal. If we were allowed to use corporal punishment, kids would think twice about using banmal to me on a daily basis.

[Unposter]

Against. Children are great immitators, especially their parents. Teachers? Well, I guess it depends on what kind of students they are. Anyway, when you hit a child, you teach them that violence is an appropriate response. And, the next thing you know, you are knee deep to waist high in Iraq and Afghanistan. Stop the violence! Don't hit children!

Also, you will find that the world looks very different when it is your children. I feel very comfortable disciplining my children but if someone, anyone, even a teacher, lifted a hand against my child, that would be a completely different story.

There are some things you just shouldn't do. This is one of them.

[edwardcatflap]

There are very strong emotive arguments against corporal punishment but the fact is it works better than anything else anyone has come up with so far. Since CP was abolished in the UK discipline in schools has got much worse, teacher morale has declined and no one has come up with a satisfactory system to replace it. Exclusion is a basically a holiday. What really bad kid is going to mind that? Naughty kids these days are told they're suffering from syndromes such as 'anti school syndrome' and tax payers' money is spent on psychologists who meet with them individually to discuss their 'issues'. Every whim is catered for as they are allowed to select which lessons they feel 'comfortable' with attending. It's expensive and it doesn't work. And eventually I'm sure we will see a similar thing happening in Korea.

Unposter's attitude is also part of the problem. Not only do today's parents object to CP in schools these days but they now question any form of sanction a teacher takes against their kids and will often come into school to berate the teacher personally for it. Teachers have no power and the kids know it. That's why in the UK they act up more than they used to and are starting to do the same here.

[crisdean]

[The Cosmic Hum]

If corporal punishment worked, it wouldn't be such a moral embarrassment.

It doesn't work...the fear of pain works to deter people from doing improper things that they might otherwise find convenient.

Agreed...some sort of fear is required to keep people in check.

Perhaps today's parents should be faced with a fear alternative to CP...homeschooling.
Your kid doesn't want to follow the rules of the school...homeschool them. Period.
Parents can then deal with their own problems.

In general, people need to be help accountable for their actions...this includes having and raising children.
For too long now, educational institutions have been little more than babysitting services for parents that don't (want to) spend enough time properly educating/disciplining their children.

[Mix1]

Well, for or against, you've got to admit there's something very different about today's kids in terms of how they view respect, manners, and deference when it comes to minding adults. People mentioned the US and the UK as examples. In Korea, you could see this change within a few years, and the difference is staggering, coinciding directly with the time CP was removed.

I don't remember ever talking to adults or standing up to them like we are seeing today (and I was pretty bad - a total smart ass, but I knew the limits and still deferred to adults and treated them with respect overall). It's like many have no concept of what could/should happen if they cross the line, because suddenly there's almost no consequences for acting up.

All throughout history there were consequences for acting up against adults, but suddenly there isn't. Of course there's going to be problems associated with it. And we haven't even begun to reap the results, as it will be getting worse if the pendulum doesn't swing back a little bit.

Kids were always at the bottom of the pecking order and it worked well, but suddenly they can pretty much get away with anything. Some parents think they are equals or "friends" even though they can't even make good decisions yet. WTF?

Kids need limits and consequences. Everyone does, but especially kids. Pampering them and treating them like any punishment is a crime only creates insolent a**holes. The problem lies with today's adults... who are way too soft.

Someone mentioned you don't beat dogs when you are training them. True, but you do have to exert dominance and a bit of force, sometimes in a way that hints at potential violence or severe consequence if they don't behave. Some won't want to admit it but that's that's how humans work too. We are animals with hierarchies and if you look at the animal kingdom, the younger ones are always at the bottom and have to follow rules. Wonder why?

[Skipperoo]

The problem is not that CP was removed in the UK, it is that CP was removed and replaced with nothing.

[Unposter]

No one said anything about their not being punishments and consequences just that hitting shouldn't be one of them. It is certainly natural to hit people. I have twin boys. When they get angry at each other, one will hit the other. I have to intervene and explain that hitting is not an acceptable way to deal with your problems. And, I certainly don't want any teacher to undo the good lessons I've taught my kids.

I want my children in a school that teaches proper lessons not that violence and might make right.

And, the only reason I want to hear a teacher give for hitting my son is that my son was in the process of physically attacking the teacher or someone else (not that I hope or expect such a situation to arise but I cannot think of any other compelling reason).

I don't want strangers touching my child and I certainly don't want teachers hitting my child either. If you do that is your perogative but my guess is you don't have children because chances are your feelings will change soon.

If a student is violent in school, such students need to be removed and placed into special schools equiped for such behavioral problems.

[Mix1]

[edwardcatflap]

[Unposter]

Maybe, it is because I grew up in a small town, but there wasn't any corporal punishment in the school I went to and we did not have any significant behavioral problems as well.

But, that does not mean that I don't believe that teachers today face all sorts of problems not related to the lessons at hand. I don't doubt that is some classes and in some schools the challenges must be great.

But, those are exactly the circumstances where violence most needs to be avoided, at least by a teacher in the classroom. Not only because it teaches the wrong lessons but it is far too easy for it to get out of control. If you think hitting an obsitnate student is going to change their attitude you don't know obstinate students well. Either you are going to beat them to near death or it is just going to harden them or both. You couldn't hurt such students enough to change their ways.

Even if a student is verbally abusive, a teacher is not going to win that classroom through violence. Teachers need other ways of dealing with such students and schools need to have policies (and even workshops for students and teachers alike) in place for dealing with such students before the occurance arises.

There is absolutely no reason to provide corporal punishement in elementary and middle schools and by high school if such a student is so unruly, the best thing to do is remove such a person from the environment. Give them a second chance in a new environment if you want but if a high school student cannot behave properly, they need to be removed.

I am sure there are both good and bad parents, and even more likely a combination of all - parenting certainly isn't easy and I have had my share of things I wish I could have done over. But, we all grew up in countries with systems of justice. I doubt it is acceptable for a police officer in any of our countries to punish people (not that it might happen but that it is acceptable). Teachers should not punish their students. There needs to be a process. We need to teach our students justice as well as math, science and reading. We need to teach them that decisions should not be arbitrary - at the whim - of a despot (teacher.)

Teachers need to follow rules (due process) just like police officers, judges and other government officials. These rules need to be agreed upon by both parents as well as school officials. Students as well as teachers need to know and follow these rules and know that there are clearly spelled out consequences for breaking those rules. Of course, understanding is relative to age, but still there should be consequences and those consequences should fit the rule that was broken.

So, if you think corporal punishment is okay, what rule has to be broken before it is administerd, who would you have administer it, what kind of process would you have to follow to prove that you were not accidentally punishing an innocent person? How old should the offender be? Maybe, some details would help.

Like I said earlier, if a child were physically attacking (or quite possibly threatening) another student or the teacher, I could see it as a possibility but I don't see many circumstances were I would see it is okay. And, I think it should be up to a school principle in cordination with the student's parents, not the teacher, to administer it, though certainly the teacher should have the right to self-defence. For example, if a student left his or her homework at home, do you think a paddle is appropriate?

[flakfizer]

I think CP is a tricky one. I feel like it's necessary as a last resort, but it's too easily abused or overused. I'm not sure I have a unified theory, but a few points I'd add are these:

I don't get the whole "You're sending the wrong message" thing. Children are smart enough to know that an authority using cp is not the same as a kid "settling arguments" through violence. If I punish my kids by taking away a favorite toy, will they conclude that stealing is the way to deal with problems? No. Learning that authorities can do things you can't is a basic lesson that kids must learn. Adults can drink, kids can't. Parents can stay up late and still insist their kids should not. Teachers don't have to raise their hands to talk in class. Police can drive over the speed limit to punish those who also drive over the speed limit. Kids don't have a hard time understanding this. I really doubt they have a hard time understanding that they're not allowed to hit others even though cp may be used by an authority.

CP is essentially behind every other punishment. What else can be done? You can tell a kid to leave the room. What if he refuses? You can tell a kid to sit the corner. What if he says no? Police can arrest a person. What if he resists? The courts can sentence someone to prison. What if he doesn't want to go? Force is necessary when individuals refuse to accept other forms of discipline. As long as a person accepts other forms of discipline though, cp in unnecessary. Other forms of discipline should always be tried first.

CP has been shown to lower IQs and can easily be abused. It is often done in anger and with an aim to instill fear rather than thoughtfulness.

In conclusion, I really don't think kids learn violence from cp. I also think cp is rarely useful and that other forms of discipline are preferable. If cp were used, there need be strict guidelines regarding it. There's a big difference between snapping a kid on the arm with your finger and pummeling him with a stick. Overall, I don't think most kids ever really need cp as most will submit to other forms of discipline.

[methdxman]

CP is not really the issue. Most people don't know how to raise kids. They have no idea about how to exert authority or gain confidence from people in general.

One thing is for sure, Koreans raise kids better than Americans do. N. Americans in general are probably an example of how not to raise kids.