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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
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Sure, using technical terms he was a criminal, but than again almost half of the population is.
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I'm not referring to his drug use. |
Than what? The jewelry? That's speculation and was never proven, or even charged. They tried to match it with things that were reported stolen. He said he was holding it for a friend. Was he a criminal, maybe, but since it wasn't proven all you are doing is slandering a dead kid.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-investigated-trayvon-martin-jewelry-16015168#.T3OmbmES3RE |
Except (a) the jewelry was not reported matched with any REPORTED thefts so it doesn't mean it was not stolen. And (b) that's not what I'm referring to either. Read the case again. |
Why don't you come out with what you mean then? Are you referring to the actual Zimmerman incident? If that's the case than I'd wait for more information to surface. Hopefully there will be a fuller picture soon with responsibility being moved away from the original police force. |
I'm referring to the police report.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html
| Quote: |
| Trayvon's parents and civil rights leaders spoke after a dramatic police account of the fatal shooting claimed the black teen launched an unprovoked attack on the neighborhood watch volunteer in which he punched him in the face, knocked him to the ground and then bashed his head into the sidewalk several times before trying to grab his gun. |
And there was a witness there.
| Quote: |
One unidentified witness, who did not see the shooting, said he saw a younger man on top of an older man and the older man was screaming for help.
Police say the cries that witnesses reported, which Trayvon's family say were coming from the teen, are actually likely from Zimmerman. |
His injuries are consistent with his story.
| Quote: |
| According to police reports and accounts given by Zimmerman's lawyer, Craig Sooner, the 28-year-old's nose was bloody or broken, his lip was bleeding and he had a bloody gash on the back of his head. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
[
Sure, using technical terms he was a criminal, but than again almost half of the population is.
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I'm not referring to his drug use. |
Than what? The jewelry? That's speculation and was never proven, or even charged. They tried to match it with things that were reported stolen. He said he was holding it for a friend. Was he a criminal, maybe, but since it wasn't proven all you are doing is slandering a dead kid.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-investigated-trayvon-martin-jewelry-16015168#.T3OmbmES3RE |
Except (a) the jewelry was not reported matched with any REPORTED thefts so it doesn't mean it was not stolen. And (b) that's not what I'm referring to either. Read the case again. |
Why don't you come out with what you mean then? Are you referring to the actual Zimmerman incident? If that's the case than I'd wait for more information to surface. Hopefully there will be a fuller picture soon with responsibility being moved away from the original police force. |
I'm referring to the police report.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html
| Quote: |
| Trayvon's parents and civil rights leaders spoke after a dramatic police account of the fatal shooting claimed the black teen launched an unprovoked attack on the neighborhood watch volunteer in which he punched him in the face, knocked him to the ground and then bashed his head into the sidewalk several times before trying to grab his gun. |
| Quote: |
One unidentified witness, who did not see the shooting, said he saw a younger man on top of an older man and the older man was screaming for help.
Police say the cries that witnesses reported, which Trayvon's family say were coming from the teen, are actually likely from Zimmerman. |
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In that case I would refer you to my previous post dealing with all the issues related to the police investigation, including coaching witnesses, ignoring other ones, a history of corruption in racial cases, etc. etc. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
[
Sure, using technical terms he was a criminal, but than again almost half of the population is.
|
I'm not referring to his drug use. |
Than what? The jewelry? That's speculation and was never proven, or even charged. They tried to match it with things that were reported stolen. He said he was holding it for a friend. Was he a criminal, maybe, but since it wasn't proven all you are doing is slandering a dead kid.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/police-investigated-trayvon-martin-jewelry-16015168#.T3OmbmES3RE |
Except (a) the jewelry was not reported matched with any REPORTED thefts so it doesn't mean it was not stolen. And (b) that's not what I'm referring to either. Read the case again. |
Why don't you come out with what you mean then? Are you referring to the actual Zimmerman incident? If that's the case than I'd wait for more information to surface. Hopefully there will be a fuller picture soon with responsibility being moved away from the original police force. |
I'm referring to the police report.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120504/Trayvon-Martin-case-He-suspended-times-caught-burglary-tool.html
| Quote: |
| Trayvon's parents and civil rights leaders spoke after a dramatic police account of the fatal shooting claimed the black teen launched an unprovoked attack on the neighborhood watch volunteer in which he punched him in the face, knocked him to the ground and then bashed his head into the sidewalk several times before trying to grab his gun. |
| Quote: |
One unidentified witness, who did not see the shooting, said he saw a younger man on top of an older man and the older man was screaming for help.
Police say the cries that witnesses reported, which Trayvon's family say were coming from the teen, are actually likely from Zimmerman. |
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In that case I would refer you to my previous post dealing with all the issues related to the police investigation, including coaching witnesses, ignoring other ones, a history of corruption in racial cases, etc. etc. |
And I would refer you to my last remark/quote which shows his injuries are consistent with his story.
But don't you see what you are doing here? You are blasting the police for their alleged history while at the same time criticizing me for blasting Trayvon about his . And yes these are allegations...nothing has been PROVEN in a court of a law as of yet.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:47 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
And I would refer you to my last remark/quote which shows his injuries are consistent with his story. |
Both sides are innocent until proven otherwise. Even though Martin is dead, he is, in a sense, just as much on trial as Zimmerman. I would mention though, that his injuries weren't mentioned in the original police report but were only added in after. Furthermore why haven't we seen any pictures of the injuries, surely that would end a lot of speculation. Also, here is a video from that night where it doesn't look like Zimmerman was significantly injured. No blood, he seems in decent condition all things considering.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3OwnGES3RE
Oh and by the way police departments aren't people, they are institutions, and when a police department is making mistakes in real time it should be dealt with. That's a false equivalence. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
And I would refer you to my last remark/quote which shows his injuries are consistent with his story. |
Both sides are innocent until proven otherwise. Even though Martin is dead, he is, in a sense, just as much on trial as Zimmerman. I would mention though, that his injuries weren't mentioned in the original police report but were only added in after. Furthermore why haven't we seen any pictures of the injuries, surely that would end a lot of speculation. Also, here is a video from that night where it doesn't look like Zimmerman was significantly injured. No blood, he seems in decent condition all things considering.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3OwnGES3RE |
And I would mention that your link contradicts this statement of yours
From the link above
| Quote: |
| The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning. |
(bolding mine)
The video is rather inconclusive...many times bruises don't show up until much later...and he was given medical attention first as my quote shows thus stopping the bleeding presumably.
So which is it Mr. Leon? Is the link mistaken or is it you? Did you even read the link first? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
And I would refer you to my last remark/quote which shows his injuries are consistent with his story. |
Both sides are innocent until proven otherwise. Even though Martin is dead, he is, in a sense, just as much on trial as Zimmerman. I would mention though, that his injuries weren't mentioned in the original police report but were only added in after. Furthermore why haven't we seen any pictures of the injuries, surely that would end a lot of speculation. Also, here is a video from that night where it doesn't look like Zimmerman was significantly injured. No blood, he seems in decent condition all things considering.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3OwnGES3RE |
And I would mention that your link contradicts this statement of yours
From the link above
| Quote: |
| The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning. |
(bolding mine)
The video is rather inconclusive...many times bruises don't show up until much later...and he was given medical attention first as my quote shows thus stopping the bleeding presumably. |
Where are the current pictures? If I was his lawyer I'd put up pictures of him if he looked beat up.
� Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle. Attorneys for the dead teen�s family believe the information was added in a second report to justify the lack of an arrest.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/21/2706876_p2/sanford-commission-votes-no-confidence.html#storylink=cpy
Here is a copy of the initial police reports. As you can see the first one by Officer Smith doesn't mention the injuries, but the second one by the second officer does.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf
I think there is some confusion because both reports were filled on the same day, but the first one was, at least as far as I can tell, before ZImmerman was questioned and the second one was after. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
And I would refer you to my last remark/quote which shows his injuries are consistent with his story. |
Both sides are innocent until proven otherwise. Even though Martin is dead, he is, in a sense, just as much on trial as Zimmerman. I would mention though, that his injuries weren't mentioned in the original police report but were only added in after. Furthermore why haven't we seen any pictures of the injuries, surely that would end a lot of speculation. Also, here is a video from that night where it doesn't look like Zimmerman was significantly injured. No blood, he seems in decent condition all things considering.
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3OwnGES3RE |
And I would mention that your link contradicts this statement of yours
From the link above
| Quote: |
| The initial police report noted that Zimmerman was bleeding from the back of the head and nose, and after medical attention it was decided that he was in good enough condition to travel in a police cruiser to the Sanford, Fla., police station for questioning. |
(bolding mine)
The video is rather inconclusive...many times bruises don't show up until much later...and he was given medical attention first as my quote shows thus stopping the bleeding presumably. |
Where are the current pictures? If I was his lawyer I'd put up pictures of him if he looked beat up.
� Initial police reports never mentioned that Zimmerman had a bloody nose or a wet shirt that showed evidence of a struggle. Attorneys for the dead teen�s family believe the information was added in a second report to justify the lack of an arrest.
. |
Your last link says otherwise. It also says he was given medical attention. If he had no injuries why would he be given medical attention? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Your last link says otherwise. It also says he was given medical attention. If he had no injuries why would he be given medical attention? |
I'm not saying that he had no injuries, but rather its a nature of scale. First aid does not tell us much. My students get first aid for a scrapped knee. He didn't get any actual medical attention from a hospital or anything of that nature. In order for his self defense claim to stick he has to be able to prove that he had legitimate fear for his life, so it's an important issue. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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From what I can see that video is inconclusive. and it's hardly the bombshell that ABC is making it out to be. Zimmerman had been treated by fire responders at the scene, from one thing I read. And the report I read said his back was wet and had grass on it (not grass stains).
Basically, this is a case that cannot be won in court, based on the evidence, unless someone comes forward and said the police or prosecutor drummed this up, and provides proof. It has become apparent the news outlets will say anything to get a story read though. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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There is a theory that Martin thought Zimmerman was a gang member, and after seeing this video it TOTALLY makes sense. That would explain why Martin attacked first (if he did). Zimm's clothes look very gang-like, and he looks like a gang member...
Oops! But he should be able to wear anything, right, because hoodies and other clothes should not cause discrimination? Wow, were they BOTH guilty of profiling?? Imagine that?? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
There is a theory that Martin thought Zimmerman was a gang member, and after seeing this video it TOTALLY makes sense. That would explain why Martin attacked first (if he did). Zimm's clothes look very gang-like, and he looks like a gang member...
Oops! But he should be able to wear anything, right, because hoodies and other clothes should not cause discrimination? Wow, were they BOTH guilty of profiling?? Imagine that?? |
I wonder where the gun was in all of this. Was it in the waist band, did Zimmerman show it, etc. I mean if the kid saw the gun that would be more than just simple profiling. I don't really have any idea, it's just something that I wonder about. Judging from what he's wearing, Martin would have been able to see the gun, unless it was in a side or back holster. In the video there are no easily visible grass stains on the jacket, so if he was just wearing the T-Shirt, where would he have concealed the gun?
Also as I watch the video the second time I saw there were no bandages on his head, so that suggests that the wounds must have been fairly superficial. Again this is just speculation, but it is something to consider. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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Zimmerman, the police chief, the state prosecutor in Florida (along with morally bereft right-wing fear-and-hate mongering politicos and closet-KKK a-holes) evidently believe that the end of removing young hooded black males from public streets justifies shooting them with impunity - especially if they dare put up any resistance (or scream too loud) when confronted by a goon with a gun.
I think that Zimmerman's retired-judge father and local police contacts were probably instrumental in over-ruling the lead investigator's determination that he should be prosecuted.
This aptly named blog links to some of the more pertinent stuff ...
http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/surveillance-tapes-show-zimmerman-wit |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
Zimmerman, the police chief, the state prosecutor in Florida (along with morally bereft right-wing fear-and-hate mongering politicos and closet-KKK a-holes) evidently believe that the end of removing young hooded black males from public streets justifies shooting them with impunity - especially if they dare put up any resistance (or scream too loud) when confronted by a goon with a gun.
I think that Zimmerman's retired-judge father and local police contacts were probably instrumental in over-ruling the lead investigator's determination that he should be prosecuted.
This aptly named blog links to some of the more pertinent stuff ...
http://crooksandliars.com/nicole-belle/surveillance-tapes-show-zimmerman-wit |
You've been around Dave's for a long time, and to be honest, whether I had any interest in the issue or not, your posts always border on crazy.
Ignored. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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Regardless of all of the admittedly complex factors going on on both sides of this case, for Martin to struggle with Zimmerman over the gun, it would have either required Zimmerman to draw it, or for it to be very poorly concealed - I know someone posted about Zimmerman's outfit not being particularly uh, concealing.
In the latter case, I'd personally say self-defense should be considered. But in the former scenario, lethal force wasn't warranted unless Martin was injuring Zimmerman in such a way that he would be required to go to the hospital for treatment. Getting beat up really shouldn't legitimize use of lethal force, in my opinion at least. |
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jrwhite82
Joined: 22 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475
At the 1:04, 1:05 and 1:06 mark, I think I can see a bump on the back of his head. Am I the only one seeing that? I'm not a doctor or an expert on skull fusion or anything, so I don't know if it's natural, but it looks pretty big to me.
I don't see any blood or grass (stains) on his clothes either though. |
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