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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Tower of Babel wrote: |
| I still don't get the connection between dedication to teaching and willingness to get on a plane and fly all the way around the world and not care at all where exactly you land. |
Who said anything like that? Neither the e-mail nor anyone on this board said anything about not caring at all where one lands. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:00 pm Post subject: |
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If it was a proper teaching job, they'd demand proper qualifications. People who really wanted to 'do their best as an educator' would do the proper training first and qualified teachers would be able to apply for a job anywhere they liked. Like at international schools. Those teachers would be paid well, respected by their pricipals and wouldn't mostly want to take off after a year or two and go somewhere else.
Because they're offering such a crap deal they know they're going to mostly attract backpackers or fresh out of college types so they try to stress the vocational and cultural experience side of the job to reduce the numbers of people doing midnight runners. Earnest types enrolled on Korean classes or learning how to play traditional Korean instruments are less likely to be bar hopping, coming into work hungover and leaving mid contract. As a result of this propaganda, newbies like RK12 are suckered into believing that the amount you immerse yourself in the local culture is somehow indicative of how effective a teacher you are. When to anyone who knows anything about TEFL it obviously isn't. Yes the principal and co-teacher will like you more if you speak Korean as they won't have to lose face by showing how awful their English is. Eating in the canteen every day and expressing a love of K pop and dramas will endear you to your co-workers and confirm their beliefs in Korean cutural superiority but it's not going to make you a better language teacher. That's why professional places don't give a crap about how good your Korean is or where you eat lunch. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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When teachers are placed in crappy locations and leave midway through the contract, schools are going to rethink this. It's better to hire someone who knows where they will go and commits to the crappy location from beginning. A teacher who feels screwed because of location assignment will feel no remorse packing up and leaving when the time is right for them.
Some genius at the top is trying to even out the control to get support from the lesser fortunate folks who live way out in the countryside. I feel this is only temporary and no one should feel pressured in taking such a stupid offer. New teachers will be victims because they don't know any better. Stay clear of the accidents, there will be a spike in ASAP job offers. Let's get the stats on how many EPIK ASAP offers there are now. I bet it will increase. Those will be red flags. |
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Tower of Babel
Joined: 29 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Tower of Babel wrote: |
| I still don't get the connection between dedication to teaching and willingness to get on a plane and fly all the way around the world and not care at all where exactly you land. |
Who said anything like that? Neither the e-mail nor anyone on this board said anything about not caring at all where one lands. |
Perhaps I worded that too strongly, or perhaps you mean to be pedantic, but if the only preference you can indicate is urban or rural, then it seems to follow that you really can't care exactly where you end up.
By offering people a chance to give first, second, and third choices, you give them a much wider range of options- take their chances on popular locations and risk not getting any of them, pick less popular areas and have a better crack at them, etc. Even if the chances of getting their first choice are low, most people will still be reassured by this opportunity to express their preferences. Magical mystery tours aren't generally very popular. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Tower of Babel wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Tower of Babel wrote: |
| I still don't get the connection between dedication to teaching and willingness to get on a plane and fly all the way around the world and not care at all where exactly you land. |
Who said anything like that? Neither the e-mail nor anyone on this board said anything about not caring at all where one lands. |
Perhaps I worded that too strongly, or perhaps you mean to be pedantic, but if the only preference you can indicate is urban or rural, then it seems to follow that you really can't care exactly where you end up.
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That does not follow at all. How does having a limited choice remove concern over where you end up? I'm fairly sure that many people are concerned over where they end up...or there wouldn't even be a thread like this. But if you have a limited choice you either don't take it at all or you pick one and hope for the best.
And anyway since you CAN indicate urban or rural at least you have a shot at going somewhere where you WANT to be as opposed to somewhere you DON'T want to be. Even when EPIK had the three choice option...there was still no guarantee that you would get any of them (especially if you picked all popular destinations like Seoul or Busan). |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| How does having a limited choice remove concern over where you end up? |
It doesn't have to be linear thinking. What if Person A wants Place 2 and Person B wants Place 1, where Person A is assigned Place 1 and Person B is assigned Place 2? Why have 2 unhappy teachers when you could have 2 happy ones who are more likely to complete their contract? It makes no sense to arbitrarily put teachers in locations. |
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swinewho
Joined: 17 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| At least EPIK recognise gay marriage now - so, to ppl who wanted to come with their friend, you could look into a civil partnership in your home country before you come over here..... |
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goreality
Joined: 09 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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| So the EPIK application is based on roulette now more than ever before. I agree with the no couples unless married. How to explain to your students and coworkers that you are 'living in sin'? |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| ^^Bon Jovi video! |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| Quote: |
| How does having a limited choice remove concern over where you end up? |
It doesn't have to be linear thinking. What if Person A wants Place 2 and Person B wants Place 1, where Person A is assigned Place 1 and Person B is assigned Place 2? Why have 2 unhappy teachers when you could have 2 happy ones who are more likely to complete their contract? It makes no sense to arbitrarily put teachers in locations. |
But they were doing that before. Even with the three city location deal there was no guarantee that you would get any of them. And now they have too many applicants to do that. They have to assign them where there is need.
In theory your idea is sound but in the real world it doesn't quite work out that way. Let's say Place 1 is urban and place 2 is rural.
Most people whether A or B want Place 1 (preferably Seoul/Busan/Daegu...usually Seoul.) Relatively few choose Place 2.
Most everyone is trying to get into a urban place (preferably Seoul) and now they just have too many people. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:18 am Post subject: |
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| And now they have too many applicants to do that. They have to assign them where there is need. |
How is too many applicants a reason to throw out reasoning? If you have 100 openings and there are 150 applicants, that's too many applicants. However, the 100 that are selected could be placed in locations of their choosing. In addition, if one of the 100 refused to go to a location assigned, then they could give the job to one of the 50.
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| Let's say Place 1 is urban and place 2 is rural. |
Then the teachers would either have to accept the different placement or simply not go through EPIK. I am not seeing a problem here. I want urban, no urban? Ok, then I will go with GEPIK, now you have 49 on the waiting list. Where's the problem?
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| Relatively few choose Place 2. |
Then it's a different application process. People apply for Place 1, if not accepted, they might be given Place 2. This still doesn't mean they shouldn't ask for Place 1 initially. I still don't see a problem.
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| Most everyone is trying to get into a urban place (preferably Seoul) and now they just have too many people. |
I agree, but what if Person 1 lived in Rural area A, and now they want something new, Rural area B. You are evading my question by bringing up rural vs. urban. Person 1 wants Rural B, Person 2 already lived in Rural area B, and now they want Rural area A. Why have 2 unhappy teachers when you could have 2 happy ones who are more likely to complete their contract?
Don't make me bolden and underline it now.
Last edited by YTMND on Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Modernist
Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Location: The 90s
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:50 am Post subject: |
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Wow, I find myself defending TUM's point here. Woah, deep breath.
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| I agree, but what if Person 1 lived in Rural area A, and now they want something new, Rural area B. You are evading my issue by bringing up Rural vs. Urban. Person 1 wants Rural B, Person 2 already lived in Rural area B, and now they want Rural area A. Why have 2 unhappy teachers when you could have 2 happy ones who are more likely to complete their contract? |
But the reality is that this hardly ever happens. To the extent people living in one of the big 7 know anything about Korea, they know Seoul and [maybe] Busan. Gyeonggi is something they can 'get', they just think Seoul suburbs [which of course leads to loads of issues and headaches when they end up in someplace like Hwaseong]. Then they come here and read thread after thread exalting the supposed glory of Seoul and 'Cohiba's Rule' reposted again and again. So, yeah, when some recruiter says 'how about Jeonju, or Buyeo?' they're not typically jumping up and down at the prospect. If they DO manage to finish a rural contract, there is a strong chance they will want a more urban slot the next time--we see this all the time on this forum, don't we?
They pick Seoul or Busan because that's what most people do when they are considering moving to a new country--go to the biggest cities, with the most assets and the most foreigner-friendly reputations. It's why there are more foreigners in Sydney than Perth, or Toronto rather than Calgary. And Oz and Canada are FAR more foreigner-friendly overall than Korea.
So bottom line is TUM is right. I would be willing to bet, too, that there were more than a few cases where a person was offered a slot outside the S/B nexus and refused it, or agreed but then pulled a runner after a short stay. They are probably trying to screen those people out. Isn't this basically just EPIK evolving into the JET Programme? I mean, no one over there is getting put in Osaka or Kyoto, are they? |
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isitts
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| Tower of Babel wrote: |
| I still don't get the connection between dedication to teaching and willingness to get on a plane and fly all the way around the world and not care at all where exactly you land. |
I'm not sure about that, either. I offered a possible reason for EPIK's change of policy at the bottom of the first page of this thread, but seems it went unnoticed.
Though, in the end, the reason doesn't matter and EPIK isn't the only program of its kind that has this policy. EPIK is not the only public school program in Korea. If you want to be able to choose your location, choose another program, school, and/or country. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
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| And now they have too many applicants to do that. They have to assign them where there is need. |
(1) How is too many applicants a reason to throw out reasoning? If you have 100 openings and there are 150 applicants, that's too many applicants. However, the 100 that are selected could be placed in locations of their choosing. In addition, if one of the 100 refused to go to a location assigned, then they could give the job to one of the 50.
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| Let's say Place 1 is urban and place 2 is rural. |
(2)Then the teachers would either have to accept the different placement or simply not go through EPIK. I am not seeing a problem here. I want urban, no urban? Ok, then I will go with GEPIK, now you have 49 on the waiting list. Where's the problem?
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| Relatively few choose Place 2. |
(3)Then it's a different application process. People apply for Place 1, if not accepted, they might be given Place 2. This still doesn't mean they shouldn't ask for Place 1 initially. I still don't see a problem.
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| Most everyone is trying to get into a urban place (preferably Seoul) and now they just have too many people. |
I agree, but what if Person 1 lived in Rural area A, and now they want something new, Rural area B. (4)You are evading my question by bringing up rural vs. urban. Person 1 wants Rural B, Person 2 already lived in Rural area B, and now they want Rural area A. Why have 2 unhappy teachers when you could have 2 happy ones who are more likely to complete their contract? |
(numbers are mine)
I took the liberty of numbering your questions for easier reference.
1. I wasn't suggesting 100 positions and 150 applicants when I said "too many applicants". But let's go with your numbers. In that case I was suggesting something like 100 URBAN positions and 50 RURAL positions. However let's say that 140 people requested urban positions and only 10 requested rural (which is very likely). Very few people request specifically to be in a rural area (especially for their first time).
If they don't have enough urban positions some people are going to have to go to rural positions...that's just the way it is.
2. Sure you can go with GEPIK but GEPIK only serves one province and it doesn't serve Seoul either. What if you want to be in Seoul or another province?
3. Sure they can ask...doesn't mean they will get it.
4. The rural/urban thing ISN'T MINE. IT IS THE CHOICES ON THE EPIK FORM. I'm just working with what they gave us.
As for person B wanting a rural area...usually people who want a rural area have no problem getting them at all. I've requested a rural area three times. Each time I've had no problem getting a job. Of the handful of teachers I know who also go for rural areas...not ONE of them has had a problem including two who are male, over 40, a tad portly and were snapped up in days. So to go with your example both teacher A and B would be happy. EPIK has more than enough trouble trying to place teachers in rural areas as it is...they'd be happy to accommodate them. It's the urban areas that they want teachers to be "flexible" about/ |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| If they don't have enough urban positions some people are going to have to go to rural positions...that's just the way it is. |
That STILL doesn't explain why you can't have a preference. You are changing the numbers around, but the argument/question is STILL the same!!! Why can't 10 be selected if they choose urban, and then the remaining 130 have a choice to continue with the application process for rural jobs or find another organization/location?
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| 2. Sure you can go with GEPIK but GEPIK only serves one province and it doesn't serve Seoul either. What if you want to be in Seoul or another province? |
Oh, you mean like a preference? Before you were stating how they cannot make preferences, now you are arguing my case. Yea, what if? I want to know what if I apply with EPIK, where will I be placed? Maybe I want to be closer to Seoul. If not, then I don't want to apply through EPIK. Wouldn't that make more sense than applying through EPIK, flying to Korea, getting your location, finding out it's way out somewhere you don't want to be, and then doing a midnight runner? No one wins in that case. It makes no sense to go in blindly not knowing where you will work.
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| Sure they can ask...doesn't mean they will get it. |
My understanding of this premise is that they can't. They are all pooled into the same group of candidates.
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| It's the urban areas that they want teachers to be "flexible" about |
Ok, that's the missing ingredient. I was under the impression it was an urban vs. rural issue. If it is just urban, then people should apply for urban and if they don't get it, then rural or another organization. Another option would be to go with a recruiter who might have connections with specific schools. |
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