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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject: grammar question (difference with the) |
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I have a few picky questions about the following two sentences (which only differ by "the).
Tina visits the coffee shop most frequently.
Tina visits the coffee shop the most frequently.
Q1) Are both sentences grammatically correct?
Q2) I think the sentences have different meanings. I prefer the second
one (= Tina makes more trips to the coffee shops than others).
What meaning do you get from the first one?
Thanks a lot. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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The first is a truncation of the second, and so means basically the same as the second -- that is, the superlative form (the best, the most, the least, the worst) is supposed to have the "the" in it, unless replaced by another indicator/qualifier (such as a possessive pronoun)...but in normal speech, many people drop it....
As a stand-alone sentence, it is incorrect anyway -- "the most" should be replaced by "quite" or "very," if this is all the information we get. If the preceding sentences gave the context, either of at least two other people attending coffee shops, or of at least two other shops which Tina visits, then I would say go with the latter sentence, as it is more "regular" and formal |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Using "quite" or "very" instead of "most" is just a prescribed writing style. The most frequently used rules will be preached ad nauseum, but in this sentence using "the quite frequently used rules" and "the very frequently used words" sound strange to me. Use what sounds better. In the original example, either is fine.
Using just "most frequently" (without the "the") shows emphasis rather than a superlative.
You are most welcome. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: grammar question (difference with the) |
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| raewon wrote: |
I have a few picky questions about the following two sentences (which only differ by "the).
Tina visits the coffee shop most frequently.
Tina visits the coffee shop the most frequently.
Q1) Are both sentences grammatically correct?
Q2) I think the sentences have different meanings. I prefer the second
one (= Tina makes more trips to the coffee shops than others).
What meaning do you get from the first one?
Thanks a lot. |
Hello Raewon,
I am not sure I agree with either of the above posts...but I get the feeling some regional applications that I am not used to may apply here.
In my opinion, in this context...number one is correct...and 2 is not correct.
Some reasons for this...in this context.
'frequently' is being used as an adverb...article not required.
'the most'...as a superlative modifier...modifies nouns/verbs...not adverbs
Ex. The most frequently visited shop, is the coffee shop.
Some variations may help for this, and to see this more clearly...let's rewrite the construction with the adverb next to the verb.
Tina frequently visits the coffee shop.
Tina most frequently visits the coffee shop.
(most is being used as a quantifier here to modify frequently...as in the original)
Tina the most frequently visits the coffee shop. (?)
Again, if regional usage of the article is being applied then perhaps both are ok.
I am not aware of such usage or the grammar guidelines that would apply to it.
However, the following construction is quite common.
Tina visits the coffee shop most.
Tina visits the coffee shop the most.
In this construction (superlative modifying verb), I agree with The Gadfly's analysis.
Hope this is useful. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
Using "quite" or "very" instead of "most" is just a prescribed writing style. The most frequently used rules will be preached ad nauseum, but in this sentence using "the quite frequently used rules" and "the very frequently used words" sound strange to me. Use what sounds better. In the original example, either is fine.
Using just "most frequently" (without the "the") shows emphasis rather than a superlative.
You are most welcome. |
Well, since we are teaching primarily second- or foreign-language learners, I usually go with prescriptive forms.
In your example, there IS an implied group of other forms, and so "the quite frequently" and "the very frequently used rules" would both be incorrect.
If you had said "the quite frequently used words have caused some debate in the forums," then yeah, it would be correct, but needlessly verbose. As a solid rule for students, good writing is clear and direct -- yeah, Finnegans Wake is considered good by many people, but if you were reading student writing that looked like it, would you praise it, or make alternate suggestions?
Most students are seeking to emulate the "academic voice" or "voiceless" forms of writing. You may be beyond that, and if so, great for you. If you happen to have a student ready to go beyond it, even better for you...but most students have to be able to emulate that style in order to be successful in many English classes during their educational careers.
Prescribed forms are prescribed for solid reasons. Difference for difference's sake can backfire. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| needlessly verbose |
Yea, unnecessary. Worthless reply pion. |
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WI-Do
Joined: 01 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Isn't this a difference between the adverbial phrase attaching to the verb versus attaching to the verb phrase? "The most frequently" cannot modify only the verb. It can only modify the entire verb phrase. However, "most frequently" can modify the verb or the entire verb phrase and therefore can precede the verb.
You should be able to see the same thing with "tomorrow" and "often."
Tina often visits Starbucks.
Tina visits Starbucks often.
Tina visits Starbucks tomorrow.
*Tina tomorrow visits Starbucks. |
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WI-Do
Joined: 01 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:44 am Post subject: Re: grammar question (difference with the) |
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| raewon wrote: |
I have a few picky questions about the following two sentences (which only differ by "the).
Tina visits the coffee shop most frequently.
Tina visits the coffee shop the most frequently.
Q1) Are both sentences grammatically correct?
Q2) I think the sentences have different meanings. I prefer the second
one (= Tina makes more trips to the coffee shops than others).
What meaning do you get from the first one?
Thanks a lot. |
I realize that I didn't quite answer your questions.
Q1) Both are correct.
Q2) They have different meanings. "Most" in the first sentence is simply an intensifier of frequently. You could easily replace "most" with "very" to capture the same meaning. The second is a superlative construction that has two possible meanings: Tina is the most frequently visiting customer or that she visits that coffee shop more frequently than any other coffee shop. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:15 am Post subject: Re: grammar question (difference with the) |
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| raewon wrote: |
Are both sentences grammatically correct?
Q2) I think the sentences have different meanings. I prefer the second
one (= Tina makes more trips to the coffee shops than others).
What meaning do you get from the first one?
Thanks a lot. |
Hello again Raewon,
Some quick questions about your question 2.
First.
I think the sentences have different meanings. I prefer the second one.
(The second sentence or the second meaning?)
It seems obvious you mean the second sentence.
Second
(=Tina makes more trips to the coffee shops than others).
than other shops....or other people?
This is the part that has me thinking that this form is ungrammatical in that it is causing confusion in its meaning.
Again, I go with the first one as being more grammatically correct for the reasons stated above, and also because it seems that the second one is ambiguous in its form and meaning. |
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raewon
Joined: 16 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the replies. It seems that not everyone agrees with the usage/interpretation of those sentences.
The Cosmic Hum wrote:
| Quote: |
(=Tina makes more trips to the coffee shops than others).
than other shops....or other people?
This is the part that has me thinking that this form is ungrammatical in that it is causing confusion in its meaning. |
I see what you mean about the confusion. If a context is added to make it
clear that "than" others = "than other people" ... would you accept
[Tina visits the coffee shop the most frequently.] to have this meaning?
Hmm... by itself it does seem to be ambiguous. But if I wanted the sentence to have the meaning of "than other coffee shops" I think I would have written: Tina visits this coffee shop the most frequently." I think that
would clear up that confusion.... but in terms of grammar, perhaps
"the most" should not be used in this sentence either. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:14 pm Post subject: Re: grammar question (difference with the) |
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| WI-Do wrote: |
I realize that I didn't quite answer your questions.
Q1) Both are correct.
Q2) They have different meanings. "Most" in the first sentence is simply an intensifier of frequently. You could easily replace "most" with "very" to capture the same meaning. The second is a superlative construction that has two possible meanings: Tina is the most frequently visiting customer or that she visits that coffee shop more frequently than any other coffee shop. |
I agree with almost all of this, except that the second construction suggests to me that Tina is the most frequent customer or that she visits the coffee shop more frequently than other types of shop (e.g. Smoothie King, KFC, clothes store etc). For what you suggest right at the end, the sentence would have to be "Tina visits THAT coffee shop the most frequently" (EDIT: Actually, given what I write below, your interpretation of the sentence would be correct in a specific context - i.e. Tina likes to go to all her regular places on the weekend: the coffee shop, the bookstore, the movie theater. She visits the coffee shop the most frequently")
As noted above, the second sentence is ambiguous, but that doesn't make it incorrect, because the context would make it very clear. It's only because we are debating it as a single line that it can be confusing. |
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WI-Do
Joined: 01 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: grammar question (difference with the) |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
I agree with almost all of this, except that the second construction suggests to me that Tina is the most frequent customer or that she visits the coffee shop more frequently than other types of shop (e.g. Smoothie King, KFC, clothes store etc). For what you suggest right at the end, the sentence would have to be "Tina visits THAT coffee shop the most frequently" (EDIT: Actually, given what I write below, your interpretation of the sentence would be correct in a specific context - i.e. Tina likes to go to all her regular places on the weekend: the coffee shop, the bookstore, the movie theater. She visits the coffee shop the most frequently")
As noted above, the second sentence is ambiguous, but that doesn't make it incorrect, because the context would make it very clear. It's only because we are debating it as a single line that it can be confusing. |
Yeah, you're completely right about "the coffee shop." I think what I did was replace "the coffee shop" in my head with Starbucks right away to make the sentence simpler to parse, and then I added the additional meaning. |
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WI-Do
Joined: 01 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| raewon wrote: |
I think that
would clear up that confusion.... but in terms of grammar, perhaps
"the most" should not be used in this sentence either. |
Don't confuse correct/incorrect grammar with good/bad style or writing. Using "the most frequently" is grammatically correct. It doesn't matter whether it's confusing out of context; it's still grammatically possible. For example, look at the famous sentence: colorless green ideas sleep furiously. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. However, it's still grammatically correct. The decision to use "the most frequently" or not is a style decision, not a grammar decision. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| WI-Do wrote: |
| raewon wrote: |
I think that
would clear up that confusion.... but in terms of grammar, perhaps
"the most" should not be used in this sentence either. |
Don't confuse correct/incorrect grammar with good/bad style or writing. Using "the most frequently" is grammatically correct. It doesn't matter whether it's confusing out of context; it's still grammatically possible. For example, look at the famous sentence: colorless green ideas sleep furiously. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. However, it's still grammatically correct. The decision to use "the most frequently" or not is a style decision, not a grammar decision. |
This is an interesting point WI-Do.
But Chomsky's example does not lend itself well to the OP's example.
Chomsky wrote that sentence with the intention of demonstrating the problems with prescriptive grammars.
It isn't just a question of good/bad style.
Chomsky's sentence follows the prescriptive rules for writing a grammatically correct English sentence...but makes no sense.
Adj+Adj+sub+pred+adv.
There is no confusion over which parts of speech are being represented in the example...or what the role of each is playing.
That is, in part, what makes it such a good example in prescriptive grammar circles.
However, in this example
"Tina visits the coffee shop the most frequently. "
The same can not be said.
There is confusion over which parts of speech are being represented and what roles are being played.
It isn't just a matter of style.
Granted, the term 'grammatical' has many interpretations...and loosely applied, even the OP's sentence can be said to be "grammatical".
But more specifically...ungrammatical because it causes confusion as to the roles being played.
As an educator, it seems as though this would be an example of how not to write to avoid confusing the reader.
This is a point of grammar...not style.
The first sentence is a matter of style.
Again though, I am more than willing to concede this point on the grounds that somewhere there may be people who use that construction, and I am just unaware of such usage...the evolution of English grammar makes all of us students for life.
You have made some great points in this thread.
Thanks for the insights. |
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