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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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 Posted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
Anyway, George is guilty of killing someone after he profiled him and took the law into his own hands...
...I don't know much about Trayvon. He may not have been a saint and had discipline issues, but his death was the fault of G. Zimmerman. People tried to look into Trayvon's background to see if he could possibly helped cause his own demise by confronting George from the get go like George claimed whatever his reasons were. |
If Martin confronted Zimmerman and took the first swing, he was the first person to commit a crime on that night AND is responsible for the result. Did Zimmerman follow him? Was he racist? Did Zimmerman talk to Martin? None of that matters if Martin threw the first punch. Can prosecutors prove that Zimmerman attacked Martin before shooting him? Of course not. This case should be over already.
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| And as we have already heard there was an eyewitness there who testified that there were two men one on top of the other...just like the scenario described by Zimmerman. For all we know it could be that witness. |
The same witness identified Zimmerman (the guy with gashes in the back of his head) as being underneath Martin. It's not often you see the guy on top yelling "help" while he smashes his victim's head into the ground. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| Also not let's forget...whatever happens...Zimmerman's life as an anonymous private citizen is forever over. Plus he has a $10,000 bounty on his head to boot. I think that's enough punishment for his part in this...I'm not buying Trayvon as the innocent victim pure as driven snow. Those marks on Zimmerman's head didn't appear by magic. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Also not let's forget...whatever happens...Zimmerman's life as an anonymous private citizen is forever over. Plus he has a $10,000 bounty on his head to boot. I think that's enough punishment for his part in this...I'm not buying Trayvon as the innocent victim pure as driven snow. Those marks on Zimmerman's head didn't appear by magic. |
So you're advocating no further investigation? What if you're wrong and Zimmerman initiated the confrontation? If I'm attacked and I resist, and I am subsequently shot and killed, should my attacker go free? I'm not saying that this is what occurred, but such blas� disregard for getting to the truth of the matter is exactly what so many of us are arguing against. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Also not let's forget...whatever happens...Zimmerman's life as an anonymous private citizen is forever over. Plus he has a $10,000 bounty on his head to boot. I think that's enough punishment for his part in this...I'm not buying Trayvon as the innocent victim pure as driven snow. Those marks on Zimmerman's head didn't appear by magic. |
So you're advocating no further investigation? What if you're wrong and Zimmerman initiated the confrontation? If I'm attacked and I resist, and I am subsequently shot and killed, should my attacker go free? I'm not saying that this is what occurred, but such blas� disregard for getting to the truth of the matter is exactly what so many of us are arguing against. |
The only one who knows exactly what went on that night is Zimmerman. It all depends on if a judge and jury find his story believable or not. If Zimmerman sticks to his story there is no way to verify whether I am wrong or not.
Neither will a trial enable us to get to the truth of the matter. Innocent men have been convicted before and will be again. It will give us a clearer picture of what MAY have happened that night. But unless Zimmerman is lying and suddenly makes a full confession...we will never know what really happened...regardless of whether he is convicted or goes free. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Also not let's forget...whatever happens...Zimmerman's life as an anonymous private citizen is forever over. Plus he has a $10,000 bounty on his head to boot. I think that's enough punishment for his part in this...I'm not buying Trayvon as the innocent victim pure as driven snow. Those marks on Zimmerman's head didn't appear by magic. |
So you're advocating no further investigation? What if you're wrong and Zimmerman initiated the confrontation? If I'm attacked and I resist, and I am subsequently shot and killed, should my attacker go free? I'm not saying that this is what occurred, but such blas� disregard for getting to the truth of the matter is exactly what so many of us are arguing against. |
The only one who knows exactly what went on that night is Zimmerman. It all depends on if a judge and jury find his story believable or not. If Zimmerman sticks to his story there is no way to verify whether I am wrong or not.
Neither will a trial enable us to get to the truth of the matter. Innocent men have been convicted before and will be again. It will give us a clearer picture of what MAY have happened that night. But unless Zimmerman is lying and suddenly makes a full confession...we will never know what really happened...regardless of whether he is convicted or goes free. |
This is ignoring things like forensic evidence, such as the fact that it wasn't Zimmerman's voice calling for help, which by the way you completely ignored the point about scientific opinion. When doctors give a diagnosis, it is known as medical opinion, when scientists state something it is know as scientific opinion, these things are clearly different than everyday, non-empirical, opinion.
Zimmerman, unless suddenly medical opinion doesn't matter, is lying about what happened. Medical opinion has looked at all the evidence that is available to the public and stated that no Zimmerman didn't have his nose broken, no Zimmerman's head is not consistent with someone who has had his head repeatedly bashed into concrete.
Legal opinion states that correcting witnesses and suppressing evidence constitutes a violation of due process of the law.
These are a lot of opinions about why this isn't as simple as what you state. I know you don't hold much regard for "opinion" but luckily the legal process holds these sorts of things in high regard.
That hole in Trayvon's chest didn't appear by magic, nor did the societal distrust in the institution of the police. Trayvon can not be brought back to life, but that trust is something that holds society together and it needs to be restored in a proper manner. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Also not let's forget...whatever happens...Zimmerman's life as an anonymous private citizen is forever over. Plus he has a $10,000 bounty on his head to boot. I think that's enough punishment for his part in this...I'm not buying Trayvon as the innocent victim pure as driven snow. Those marks on Zimmerman's head didn't appear by magic. |
So you're advocating no further investigation? What if you're wrong and Zimmerman initiated the confrontation? If I'm attacked and I resist, and I am subsequently shot and killed, should my attacker go free? I'm not saying that this is what occurred, but such blas� disregard for getting to the truth of the matter is exactly what so many of us are arguing against. |
The only one who knows exactly what went on that night is Zimmerman. It all depends on if a judge and jury find his story believable or not. If Zimmerman sticks to his story there is no way to verify whether I am wrong or not.
Neither will a trial enable us to get to the truth of the matter. Innocent men have been convicted before and will be again. It will give us a clearer picture of what MAY have happened that night. But unless Zimmerman is lying and suddenly makes a full confession...we will never know what really happened...regardless of whether he is convicted or goes free. |
(1) This is ignoring things like forensic evidence, such as the fact that it wasn't Zimmerman's voice calling for help, which by the way you completely ignored the point about scientific opinion. When doctors give a diagnosis, it is known as medical opinion, when scientists state something it is know as scientific opinion, these things are clearly different than everyday, non-empirical, opinion.
(2) Zimmerman, unless suddenly medical opinion doesn't matter, is lying about what happened. Medical opinion has looked at all the evidence that is available to the public and stated that no Zimmerman didn't have his nose broken, no Zimmerman's head is not consistent with someone who has had his head repeatedly bashed into concrete.
Legal opinion states that correcting witnesses and suppressing evidence constitutes a violation of due process of the law.
(3)These are a lot of opinions about why this isn't as simple as what you state. I know you don't hold much regard for "opinion" but luckily the legal process holds these sorts of things in high regard.
(4) That hole in Trayvon's chest didn't appear by magic, nor did the societal distrust in the institution of the police. Trayvon can not be brought back to life, but that trust is something that holds society together and it needs to be restored in a proper manner. |
(numbers are mine)
1. Seems like you are the one ignoring forensic evidence such as the wounds on the back of Mr Zimmerman's head and the ACTUAL EYEWITNESS who was there.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
Since an eyewitness trumps any number of experts I'll go with the eyewitness.
And as for your experts...Trayvon's own father said the voice calling for help on the 911 tape was NOT the voice of his son.
http://news.yahoo.com/video/orlandowesh-16122564/sanford-police-speak-out-in-trayvon-martin-case-28640523.html
2. Medical opinion has done nothing of the kind. Stop embellishing the facts. ONE DOCTOR said his nose wasn't broken. One doctor does not equate medical opinion. Facts and not hyperbole please.
3. The judicial system does not hold opinions in high regard. They hold FACTS and forensic evidence in high regard. You can have all the testimony from experts that you want but if it is not consistent with the facts...it's likely to be disregarded. People lie..forensics (unless they are tampered with) generally doesn't.
4. No one was saying the hole in Trayvon's chest appeared by magic. Zimmerman didn't get those injuries by Trayvon being an innocent victim. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
(numbers are mine)
1. Seems like you are the one ignoring forensic evidence such as the wounds on the back of Mr Zimmerman's head and the ACTUAL EYEWITNESS who was there.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
Since an eyewitness trumps any number of experts I'll go with the eyewitness.
2. Medical opinion has done nothing of the kind. Stop embellishing the facts. ONE DOCTOR said his nose wasn't broken. One doctor does not equate medical opinion. Facts and not hyperbole please.
3. The judicial system does not hold opinions in high regard. They hold FACTS and forensic evidence in high regard. You can have all the testimony from experts that you want but if it is not consistent with the facts...it's likely to be disregarded. People lie..forensics (unless they are tampered with) generally doesn't.
4. No one was saying the hole in Trayvon's chest appeared by magic. Zimmerman didn't get those injuries by Trayvon being an innocent victim. |
Again, there are witnesses that were there that have been suppressed, and there is at least one documented case of witness correction and coercion. The forensic evidence about who was screaming is admissible in court, and will undoubtedly be used in court. There have been cases that have hinged on this sort of evidence before, so yeah I would say that the legal system does hold it in high regard.
The medical opinion is limited so far because of our limited access. I do know that if someone was almost beat to death they go to the hospital. It's standard procedure for someone who has a serious head injury to be under observation, which didn't happen in this case. There is also no blood visible on his clothes even in the enhanced video. We will know a lot more once the results of Martin's autopsy is published, but from what the funeral director says there is little evidence of a serious confrontation.
You seem to disregard all opinion that you disagree with, but you state blatant opinions like Trayvon wasn't an innocent victim, that he was a thug, and that Zimmerman has been punished enough. Yet these things ignore things like due process, which is the real reason that this case is important. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
[
Here is a copy of the initial police reports. As you can see the first one by Officer Smith doesn't mention the injuries, but the second one by the second officer does.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf
I think there is some confusion because both reports were filled on the same day, but the first one was, at least as far as I can tell, before ZImmerman was questioned and the second one was after. |
I finally got these reports to load. I guess you missed the heading in bold which states
PARTIAL REPORT ONLY. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
[
Here is a copy of the initial police reports. As you can see the first one by Officer Smith doesn't mention the injuries, but the second one by the second officer does.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf
I think there is some confusion because both reports were filled on the same day, but the first one was, at least as far as I can tell, before ZImmerman was questioned and the second one was after. |
I finally got these reports to load. I guess you missed the heading in bold which states
PARTIAL REPORT ONLY. |
Which means what? On the Sanford it's presented as the initial report. I assume that this means that it includes only the initial report and not the other ones. Unless you know otherwise, I'll stick with that assumption. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
(numbers are mine)
1. Seems like you are the one ignoring forensic evidence such as the wounds on the back of Mr Zimmerman's head and the ACTUAL EYEWITNESS who was there.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012
Since an eyewitness trumps any number of experts I'll go with the eyewitness.
2. Medical opinion has done nothing of the kind. Stop embellishing the facts. ONE DOCTOR said his nose wasn't broken. One doctor does not equate medical opinion. Facts and not hyperbole please.
3. The judicial system does not hold opinions in high regard. They hold FACTS and forensic evidence in high regard. You can have all the testimony from experts that you want but if it is not consistent with the facts...it's likely to be disregarded. People lie..forensics (unless they are tampered with) generally doesn't.
4. No one was saying the hole in Trayvon's chest appeared by magic. Zimmerman didn't get those injuries by Trayvon being an innocent victim. |
(1) Again, there are witnesses that were there that have been suppressed, and there is at least one documented case of witness correction and coercion. The forensic evidence about who was screaming is admissible in court, and will undoubtedly be used in court. There have been cases that have hinged on this sort of evidence before, so yeah I would say that the legal system does hold it in high regard.
(2) The medical opinion is limited so far because of our limited access. I do know that if someone was almost beat to death they go to the hospital. It's standard procedure for someone who has a serious head injury to be under observation, which didn't happen in this case. There is also no blood visible on his clothes even in the enhanced video. We will know a lot more once the results of Martin's autopsy is published, but from what the funeral director says there is little evidence of a serious confrontation.
(3) You seem to disregard all opinion that you disagree with, but you state blatant opinions like Trayvon wasn't an innocent victim, that he was a thug, and that Zimmerman has been punished enough. Yet these things ignore things like due process, which is the real reason that this case is important. |
1. Except I never said forensic evidence wasn't held in high regard. You were attempting to claim that opinions were held in high regard by the legal process and I corrected you saying that it was forensic evidence. Glad to see you decided to play for the winning team.
2. If the gashes are clearly visible on his head why do you need to see blood?
3. Except that Trayvon is a thug is not opinion. The guy was in trouble over drugs. He was also in trouble at school for graffiti and being tardy. That seems to fit the description.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
[
Here is a copy of the initial police reports. As you can see the first one by Officer Smith doesn't mention the injuries, but the second one by the second officer does.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf
I think there is some confusion because both reports were filled on the same day, but the first one was, at least as far as I can tell, before ZImmerman was questioned and the second one was after. |
I finally got these reports to load. I guess you missed the heading in bold which states
PARTIAL REPORT ONLY. |
Which means what? On the Sanford it's presented as the initial report. I assume that this means that it includes only the initial report and not the other ones. Unless you know otherwise, I'll stick with that assumption. |
Well I'm glad to see you admitting you are proceeding on assumption rather than fact. Since this is what I've been trying to get you to admit) I think we're done here.
And it only took 17 pages or so. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
[
Here is a copy of the initial police reports. As you can see the first one by Officer Smith doesn't mention the injuries, but the second one by the second officer does.
http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf
I think there is some confusion because both reports were filled on the same day, but the first one was, at least as far as I can tell, before ZImmerman was questioned and the second one was after. |
I finally got these reports to load. I guess you missed the heading in bold which states
PARTIAL REPORT ONLY. |
Which means what? On the Sanford it's presented as the initial report. I assume that this means that it includes only the initial report and not the other ones. Unless you know otherwise, I'll stick with that assumption. |
Well I'm glad to see you admitting you are proceeding on assumption rather than fact. Since this is what I've been trying to get you to admit) I think we're done here.
And it only took 17 pages or so. |
Except that the particular piece of evidence isn't a major one, and you are making more of an assumption than I am in this particular case. It is presented as the initial report on the official government website, and it appears to be complete except for the redactions. Please note that I am not defending Trayvon, but rather am saying that it is matter of fact that the investigation was deeply flawed.
I assume that due process and forensic evidence matter more then petite demagouges ideas that someone has suffered enough already means that they shouldn't go to court, or their opinion that the victim was a thug has any legal standing.
Weed and graffiti as an adolescent make you thug for life? Really? Pot heads, hippies, and Banksy don't strike me as life long hardcore thugs, assuming much? |
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ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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