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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Steelrails"]
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
So Martin has a shaved headed (skinheaded?) dude following him and packing heat. Doesn't that give Martin the right to strike first? |
No it doesn't. There is no law that permits you to turn around, walk up to someone (who may or may not be packing heat...it was a CONCEALED weapon) and punch him.
By that logic I could turn around, walk up to a cop who happened to be strolling along behind me and sock him one on the nose.
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I don't think the weapon was concealed unless the whole time Martin was allegedly pummeling Zimmerman, Zimmerman spent unzipping his jacket. And people who have experience with guns, say thugs, can spot a weapon underneath a jacket.
Actually in a case like that it is often up to the police and lawyers to determine if the person was justifiably afraid. If someone is following you, "eyeballing" you and you notice them carrying a weapon, yeah you can probably get away with hitting them or turning around and drawing on them.
What you think some DA would prosecute a woman for kicking a man who was following her and carrying a gun while she was walking home alone at night?
At that point you might consider your best bet is to strike first rather than let them draw their gun. |
Most people don't have experience with spotting a weapon under clothing...if Trayvon did, maybe we should be asking where that experience came from.
Striking first can land you in a world of trouble...the "gun" could turn out to be a bottle of Mountain Dew for instance
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Leon"]
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
1
Of black males being wrongfully accused and identified based on shoddy eyewitness testimony? Are you serious? Of people being pressured into plea-bargaining down to lesser charges even though they are innocent? Of the police breaking into the homes of people who have committed no crimes?
These things are not isolated incidents. This is easy enough to find with any search.
[ |
That's not what I asked. I asked for a case where the below happened.
| Quote: |
| And here's how it goes- Victim says the person "might have been black" People follow that line of thought- "Hey I saw a black guy walking around last night, lives three doors down, was wearing a hoodie". Cops go in SWAT style into the innocent kid's home, in the chaos and shock of the situation the kid tussles a bit with the cops (after all he is innocent and temporarily operating on instinct), gets slammed and tazed, gets booked for felony resisting arrest and 6 other charges relating to the arrest. In order to avoid 15 years on the open and shut charges of resisting arrest, pleads guilty to a year for robbery. Goes in, either becomes predator or prey, regardless ends up mentally changed from the incident which the kid was innocent of, all thanks to being black, wearing a hoodie, and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. |
Can you name one case where this happened pretty much as you laid it out for us in the above quote?
After all as you said...it's easy enough to find with any search... |
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/24/jordan-miles-teen-violini_n_434772.html
This isn't exactly what he described, but basically the same.
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Not even close.
1. The facts are still in dispute. He claims he was walking they claim he looked like he was trying to hide against a building.
2. The article doesn't say he was "booked for felony" or anything at all...which was not the case in Mr. Steelrails' hypothesis.
3. He didn't plea guilty (see Mr. Steelrails's theory)
4. He didn't get a year in prison or any time at all. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like more and more info is coming out that deflates the racist theory.
It was in the news today that Zimmerman's so-called multiple 911 calls over the last several months were analyzed one-by-one.
1. It was found that NONE of them were 911 calls. They were to the non-emergency line.
2. Never, in ANY of the calls did he EVER refer to the color of the people he called about until directly asked what color by the dispatcher.
The truth about this media hoax is coming out. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="TheUrbanMyth"]
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
1
Of black males being wrongfully accused and identified based on shoddy eyewitness testimony? Are you serious? Of people being pressured into plea-bargaining down to lesser charges even though they are innocent? Of the police breaking into the homes of people who have committed no crimes?
These things are not isolated incidents. This is easy enough to find with any search.
[ |
That's not what I asked. I asked for a case where the below happened.
| Quote: |
| And here's how it goes- Victim says the person "might have been black" People follow that line of thought- "Hey I saw a black guy walking around last night, lives three doors down, was wearing a hoodie". Cops go in SWAT style into the innocent kid's home, in the chaos and shock of the situation the kid tussles a bit with the cops (after all he is innocent and temporarily operating on instinct), gets slammed and tazed, gets booked for felony resisting arrest and 6 other charges relating to the arrest. In order to avoid 15 years on the open and shut charges of resisting arrest, pleads guilty to a year for robbery. Goes in, either becomes predator or prey, regardless ends up mentally changed from the incident which the kid was innocent of, all thanks to being black, wearing a hoodie, and being in the wrong place at the wrong time. |
Can you name one case where this happened pretty much as you laid it out for us in the above quote?
After all as you said...it's easy enough to find with any search... |
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/24/jordan-miles-teen-violini_n_434772.html
This isn't exactly what he described, but basically the same.
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Not even close.
1. The facts are still in dispute. He claims he was walking they claim he looked like he was trying to hide against a building.
2. The article doesn't say he was "booked for felony" or anything at all...which was not the case in Mr. Steelrails' hypothesis.
3. He didn't plea guilty (see Mr. Steelrails's theory)
4. He didn't get a year in prison or any time at all. |
I didn't read steel rails account all that closely, but had recently read about this and it is similar to the sort of corrupt police action he described.
Hiding against a wall? That's probable cause these days? I'm mostly concerned with police corruption, incompetence, and racial profiling, which is what I consider most important in this case. There have been lots of cases of police planting drugs, writing false reports, etc. etc. and in many cases the police culture is toxic. I know I'm getting a little of topic, but I think police culture is a big problem.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45078456/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/nyc-cops-plead-not-guilty-drug-ticket-fixing-probe/#.T36EzfAS3RE
"Kelly said the probe included 300 cases that are being handled internally. Bronx District Attorney Robert Johnson said he hoped the criminal charges send a message that corruption would not be tolerated. The city lost about $2 million in killed-off tickets, he said.
The majority of the arrested are officials with the Patrolmen's Benevolent Association, arguably the most powerful law enforcement union in the nation, with 23,000 members. Union leaders say the practice of making a ticket disappear for a friend or family member was not only sanctioned, it was condoned at the highest levels of the nation's biggest police department.
Union President Patrick Lynch vowed that when the dust settled, they'd prove it.
Advertise | AdChoices
"Taking care of your family, taking care of your friends is not a crime," he said. "To take a courtesy and turn it into a crime is wrong."
Hundreds of union members went to support the officers, some in suits, others dressed in jeans and sweat shirts, clogging the street near the Bronx courthouse, filling the hallways and applauding in court after the officers left. Detective Steven McDonald, a city hero paralyzed decades ago, was in the courtroom in a wheelchair, with an American flag on this lap.
The officers pleaded not guilty to hundreds of charges including misconduct, grand larceny, records tampering and obstructing governmental administration. Among those charged was Jennara Cobb, an internal affairs bureau lieutenant who pleaded not guilty to charges she leaked information to union officials about the probe." |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| If someone is following you, "eyeballing" you and you notice them carrying a weapon, yeah you can probably get away with hitting them or turning around and drawing on them. |
No, not even a little bit. In Florida you can use lethal force to defend yourself against physical aggression, but you have no right to start a fight because someone looks suspicious (though you can certainly approach them peacefully or request that a police officer stop by). I don't want to take one on the nose just to return a dropped wallet :- ( |
Who said anything about lethal force?
And I'm not talking about the letter of the law, I'm talking about the reality that if someone is getting followed by someone while walking alone at night and they swing at them and it turns out the person was carrying a concealed weapon (even with permit), things are going to play out differently then some sanitized hypothetical scenario. Especially when you get juries involved.
| Quote: |
| Striking first can land you in a world of trouble...t |
Oh for sure it can backfire, as it clearly did for Mr. Martin. But there are two basic instincts- Fight or Flight and one in one situation may not be the best move in the other.
| Quote: |
| Most people don't have experience with spotting a weapon under clothing...if Trayvon did, maybe we should be asking where that experience came from. |
Well according to some on here, Trayvon is a "thug". If indeed he truly is a thug, then obviously he should be able to spot a piece.
Now if Trayvon is not some thug, but is instead a normal kid, then he probably shouldn't be able to spot the gun.
On the other hand, if Zimmerman had his jacket unzipped then the weapon is no longer concealed. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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On page 2 of this thread I wondered about the actual working of the "911 calls", and wondered if they had been edited for tv.
It appears that NBC is getting called out for their hack job - and rightly so. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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You might want to get a clue of your own.
As you say"People die all the time from single punches to the head because they become unconscious and their heads hit concrete hard.
Which was the point I made...he wasn't unconscious...he didn't go unconscious...he didn't even suffer a concusion...it doesn't even look as though he has a bump on his head...just some scratches...more like pavement burns from rubbing against it.
I've pesonally witnessed thousands of fights, so I do have some idea of what I am talking about...though you seem to be an expert with your google fingers. 
And people don't die all the time from single punches to the head.
In fact, it is exceedingly rare for that to happen..that's why it makes the news.
Get a clue...physician heal thyself. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
Personally, I don't believe Zimmerman's account of the incident at all.
Seems totally contrived to the point of absurdity.
Zimmerman had a gun, was angry, aggressive, was purposefully following the boy,...and the boy ends up being shot dead by Zimmerman.
But somehow it's all the boys fault?
So yeah...the scenario you paint seems a bit illogical...to me anyway. |
So just to clarify, the scenario that you're saying is "more logical" is:
A racist is walking down the street sees someone of a race he doesn't like and decides to follow him. The racist decides he wants to attack this person and possibly kill him. The racist then calls the police to have them send an officer...? And then when he does get around to attacking his victim, he doesn't even land a punch?
Considering witness testimony that Martin WAS on top of Zimmerman beating his head into the ground, doesn't it make more sense that Martin was a hothead who didn't like being followed and became violent? |
Yeah Comm...not sure if you are just having fun...but your scenarios have no basis in reality.
And you are doing an equally poor job implying what I am saying.
I haven't implied racism at all..and don't appreciate you putting those sentiments out inferring that I did.
I suggested that your scenario was not logical...then you create another one even more absurd.
Enjoy the thread |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
So if he had a gun how exactly was Martin able to inflict those injuries on him before being shot dead?
Answer: Martin got the jump on him plain and simple. |
TUM...I don't know how events went down.
I don't think anyone but Zimmerman knows...and I just get the feeling he has a fairly high motivation to lie.
Again...not sure about any of it.
I just don't quite understand how the Zimmerman defense team is so sure about things.
Zimmerman could be lying..it is possible...but somehow that doesn't even seem to be a possible option for some...which is a bit odd.
Too many things seem...questionable.
For the rest of the Zimmerman team...not here to pick a fight...just trying to point out that there are certainly questionable aspects to this case.
My points have nothing to do with race or gun control laws...though in this particular case...if there had been no gun...I get the feeling there would have been no murder...either way. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:19 am Post subject: |
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FYI, a lot of this stuff has been happening since Zimmerman got a new lawyer. I never was particularly impressed with the original guy he had, as he couldn't seem to string a clean sentence together during an interview without flubbing-up. Seems his situation has improved quite a bit.
Theblaze article linked above seems to hint that Zimmerman's lawyer threatened the media with defamation suits and that is why we see a sudden freak-out by the media backpeddling on all of this. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:32 am Post subject: |
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| Please stick to current info. You can find out about that several pages back. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:46 am Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| Please stick to current info. You can find out about that several pages back. |
Still looks and sounds like a lie even with enhanced video. His head has a gash or some scratches, but doesn't appear to have been slammed into concrete repeatably. His nose looks normal, his clothes show no sign of a struggle, and he turned down serious medical attention. If he had suffered head trauma he would have been kept for observation, as is standard medical procedure.
Isn't the blaze the website run by Glenn Beck? I was wondering if anybody actually went to that site, now I have the answer. It's a bit funny that someone who was critical of media bias would mention a report from Beck's website, especially since he's guilty of airing selectively edited tapes just like CNN. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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