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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:35 am Post subject: |
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I'm not basing my opinion on a couple of examples that I read about in the newspaper. I'm basing it on my own experiences, the experiences of people that I've met in person and yes in part on anonymous postings on forums. Even if I disregarded what I hear about on forums, from my own personal experiences and those of people who I personally know and can judge whether they're full of BS, I can still say that more small hogwon owners will throw the employees (Korean and foreigner alike) under the bus to save themselves. |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
I'm not basing my opinion on a couple of examples that I read about in the newspaper. I'm basing it on my own experiences, the experiences of people that I've met in person and yes in part on anonymous postings on forums. Even if I disregarded what I hear about on forums, from my own personal experiences and those of people who I personally know and can judge whether they're full of BS, I can still say that more small hogwon owners will throw the employees (Korean and foreigner alike) under the bus to save themselves. |
Well, you seemed to have missed the point. If you're going to bash an entire nation of people based on your anecdotal stories, two can play that game. Hell, your reasoning is no different from that of ajummas who insist that Koreans love their kids more based on what they've learned of western cultures.
Throwing employees under the bus is not some uniquely Korean trait as you make it out to be. If you've worked any substantial amount in your home country, you'd probably realize that. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
I'm not basing my opinion on a couple of examples that I read about in the newspaper. I'm basing it on my own experiences, the experiences of people that I've met in person and yes in part on anonymous postings on forums. Even if I disregarded what I hear about on forums, from my own personal experiences and those of people who I personally know and can judge whether they're full of BS, I can still say that more small hogwon owners will throw the employees (Korean and foreigner alike) under the bus to save themselves. |
Well, you seemed to have missed the point. If you're going to bash an entire nation of people based on your anecdotal stories, two can play that game. Hell, your reasoning is no different from that of ajummas who insist that Koreans love their kids more based on what they've learned of western cultures.
Throwing employees under the bus is not some uniquely Korean trait as you make it out to be. If you've worked any substantial amount in your home country, you'd probably realize that. |
Most of those ajummas that you speak of have not been abroad or interacted with foreign families. They're basing their opinions solely on what they're read in the paper (like you did) or 3rd hand information.
I'm not claiming that throwing the employees under the bus is a uniquely Korean phenomena, but regardless of where else it may be common, it's definitely common here. |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| Most of those ajummas that you speak of have not been abroad or interacted with foreign families. They're basing their opinions solely on what they're read in the paper (like you did) or 3rd hand information. |
Wrong. The ajummas I'm thinking of spent several years in the U.S., which is how they got exposed to such ideas on a regular basis. Also, I consider newspaper articles to be more reliable than anonymous internet forums, but apparently you consider them superior. Well, since you read it on Dave's ESL Cafe, it MUST be true! |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| Most of those ajummas that you speak of have not been abroad or interacted with foreign families. They're basing their opinions solely on what they're read in the paper (like you did) or 3rd hand information. |
Wrong. The ajummas I'm thinking of spent several years in the U.S., which is how they got exposed to such ideas on a regular basis. Also, I consider newspaper articles to be more reliable than anonymous internet forums, but apparently you consider them superior. Well, since you read it on Dave's ESL Cafe, it MUST be true! |
Check out what I actually wrote.
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| Even if I disregarded what I hear about on forums, from my own personal experiences and those of people who I personally know and can judge whether they're full of BS, I can still say that more small hogwon owners will throw the employees (Korean and foreigner alike) under the bus to save themselves. |
But you're right. Most hogwon owners owners are altruistic and want nothing more in life than to educate the children of their community and provide their employees with a warm nurturing environment in which to grow and become better teacher. When dealing with them, you can usually expect them to have your best interests at heart. They love their employees like a parent loves their own children. Most of what I wrote before was in fact a despicable attempt to make the hogwon industry look bad. To all those who read this thread, please disregard what I wrote before. You boss is in fact your number one ally while you're here in Korea. If he seems to be doing something shady or questionable, don't worry. He would never betray you. |
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bobloblaw
Joined: 30 May 2010
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
But you're right. Most hogwon owners owners are altruistic and want nothing more in life than to educate the children of their community and provide their employees with a warm nurturing environment in which to grow and become better teacher. When dealing with them, you can usually expect them to have your best interests at heart. They love their employees like a parent loves their own children. Most of what I wrote before was in fact a despicable attempt to make the hogwon industry look bad. To all those who read this thread, please disregard what I wrote before. You boss is in fact your number one ally while you're here in Korea. If he seems to be doing something shady or questionable, don't worry. He would never betray you. |
YEAH! |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm not claiming that throwing the employees under the bus is a uniquely Korean phenomena, but regardless of where else it may be common, it's definitely common here. |
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| From my experience, individuals (such as small business owners --> hogwon owners) will throw you under the bus. So, in that respect I would say that it IS part of Korean culture. |
Come again?
True, you didn't say it was uniquely, but you sure made it sound that way.
Why identify it as an aspect of Korean culture unless it was? Otherwise it's just the way things are everywhere.
It's been my experience that small business owners don't have the resources to fight a lot of things, so they are quite likely to throw an employee under the bus for all kinds of issues.
In fact a lot of companies of any size will do that, because in general the business and reputation of the company is worth more than even a very experienced and skilled employee. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 1:56 am Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I'm not claiming that throwing the employees under the bus is a uniquely Korean phenomena, but regardless of where else it may be common, it's definitely common here. |
| Quote: |
| From my experience, individuals (such as small business owners --> hogwon owners) will throw you under the bus. So, in that respect I would say that it IS part of Korean culture. |
Come again?
True, you didn't say it was uniquely, but you sure made it sound that way.
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That's just your interpretation.
| alongway wrote: |
| Why identify it as an aspect of Korean culture unless it was? Otherwise it's just the way things are everywhere. |
Because I don't think that it's the way things are everywhere.
| alongway wrote: |
It's been my experience that small business owners don't have the resources to fight a lot of things, so they are quite likely to throw an employee under the bus for all kinds of issues.
In fact a lot of companies of any size will do that, because in general the business and reputation of the company is worth more than even a very experienced and skilled employee. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| That's just your interpretation. |
Obviously I'm not the only one who interpreted it as such.
You don't identify something as being part of a culture somewhere unless it's something unique or at the very least very significant to that culture, usually in a situation where other cultures do not have that aspect.
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| Because I don't think that it's the way things are everywhere. |
Do you not think it's the way things are in at least 51% of the cultures on the planet?
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a country where small businesses don't routinely throw employees to the wolves the moment an issue crops up.
In fact I think you'd find it in every single country out there.
The issue is probably as common as breathing so let's try an exercise:
I would say that breathing IS a part of Korean culture.
Anything seem out of place with that sentence? |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 3:41 am Post subject: |
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1- sorry this happened to you OP.
2- Some of you clearly would benefit from actually teaching back home and dealing with parents there! What? A parent behaving like their kid is perfect and the school not backing the teacher openly? Holy crap this is par for the course people....heck we have a kid in school here in Canada and the parents for the most part are really bad when it comes to dealing with what their kid could possibly have done wrong!
This would certainly hold true in a Hakwon where business is based on enrollment! In that setting reputation is everything much like it is in a prestigious private school back here in Canuckland.
You want to test this theory of schools not backing Teachers...google this issue and read up! Teachers are being sold down the river by schools based on allegations all the time. Schools want to avoid controversy at all costs.
3- The apology had nothing to do with right or wrong, it was a social custom and yes it was part of maintaining face for all parties involved. the school DID send the OP a txt message after to express their support. As anyone can notice, this txt was done privately so face was maintained. to call all of this lying and xenophobia is to really missunderstand how things work in Korea.
4- Great for the kid to apologize too, that was what most people would grasp as a clear admission of regret for the trouble caused.
5- OP I suggest you just move on and do not take this too personally. At the end of the day the school did what it had to do and you suffered nothing beyond a long meeting.
6- CCTV is something that can help clear up so many issues! I am still unsure about having cameras in classrooms but at the end of the day, they can clear up allegations very quickly. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:39 am Post subject: Re: Daddy, Teacher hit me |
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| HawkesBayBoy wrote: |
| 2 days I spent doubting myself, when they knew the whole time I was innocent. � It�s just not cool |
Are you sure you're telling us the 100% truth?
Coz it doesn't make much sense.
The boy accused you of hitting him over the head with a book. A memorable event.
Surely you would definitely remember if such an incident took place or not. There would be no "self doubt" or agonizing over yes or no.
No school is going to call a mass meeting with CCTV footage that shows nothing more than "a light tap on the shoulder".
The manager would have simply told the parent that the footage showed nothing (ie your son is lying).
Last edited by Julius on Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:42 am Post subject: |
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One of the most frustrating elements of Daves is the speed at which threads devoted to teaching issues (e.g. interacting with students, teacher safeguards etc) quickly devolve into pointless arguments about the degree of "Koreanness" of said issues, turning potentially useful warnings, advice, tips etc for living and working in Korea into yet another round in the endless "Stop mindlessly picking on Korea!" "Stop mindlessly defending Korea!" forum tennis.
Can we not just accept that, as teachers, we are in a position where we could possibly be accused of things by students that we didn't do, and can't we then just suggest some ways we can improve our teaching practice in such a way to minimise the chances of this happening? Why does it have to be framed as "Do X, because all Koreans are Y", or "What's your problem, this also happens in Countries A, B and C?"
Just act professional.
With that in mind I suggest:
- never be alone in a room with any student. At the very least, leave a door open and remain in plain sight, but that's still a risky proposition.
- if falsely accused of something, ask to see CCTV footage immediately, if it exists
- only apologize for things that you have actually done. In the OPs case, apologizing for touching the kid on the shoulder is appropriate, if it upset the parents, but he shouldn't apologize for anything else.
- I would be leaving the school at the end of the contract if my bosses has sat on the CCTV footage like that and let me worry needlessly |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
3- The apology had nothing to do with right or wrong, it was a social custom and yes it was part of maintaining face for all parties involved. |
Well, this gets us back to culture. The fact is this situation would almost certainly not play out this way back home. Back home the FACTS would show that the boy had not been hit and the employee would likely not have been made to apologize for something that didn't actually happen. But here someone has to save face and either NOT state the facts, or just keep lying. Back home we could call it out as BS and lies but here it's called saving face. Yup, a cultural difference.
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the school DID send the OP a txt message after to express their support. As anyone can notice, this txt was done privately so face was maintained. to call all of this lying and xenophobia is to really missunderstand how things work in Korea.
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Not really. Lying and saving face can and often do go hand in hand. And xenophobia is usually a given here that acts as a bonus factor to fuel the fire, even if a similar thing could in theory happen between only Koreans.
Someone had to be the bad guy here, and apparently it couldn't be the Korean who lied about being hit. No, they had to go through a whole song and dance and make the foreigner repeatedly apologize for something he didn't do. Isn't face saving awesome? Interesting how his "face" wasn't really considered in the matter.
I agree it was nice he got a text after the fact so that he knows he's in on the facade now, but it would have been much more meaningful and logical to let him know about the BS beforehand. In fact, the text itself was a small way of saving face for the school, since they kind of knew the whole thing was BS and it had become obvious.
So, the text was literally the least they could have done, and that's what they did. And it also basically meant "Thanks for taking the hit for us buddy!" however, if need be, they'd throw him under the bus at any time. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:39 am Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
From my experience, individuals (such as small business owners --> hogwon owners) will throw you under the bus. So, in that respect I would say that it IS part of Korean culture. |
In the past two days, there were five cases of U.S. teachers having sex with their students in the news. Is sex with students part of U.S. culture? Seems way more common than hogwons throwing teachers under the bus.
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It isn't just throwing someone under the bus (which could happen anywhere) but the WAY it happened, via not admitting truth because someone has to save face. Are you going to deny that face saving isn't a big part of the culture here?
Face saving is practiced and accepted in the culture here. Teachers screwing students isn't an accepted part of the culture in the US. So your examples aren't that applicable.
Although it does raise the issue of "part of" vs. "happens often" in regards to culture, which is very pedantic anyway. Someone else can take that one.
Either way, I think most who have worked here would agree that the way things played out in that meeting room was very...Korean. |
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