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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| [. Also that Zimmerman had a violent past can be used in court if the defense opens the door by introducing character evidence. (I believe, I'm not a lawyer, but that's what a few minutes of google suggests.) Try not to say anything silly in response, it just makes you look silly. |
I suggest taking your own advice (the words I bolded.)
Depending on the state and jurisdiction his expunged record may not even be allowed to be used in court...there may be no door regardless of introducing character evidence.
"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
As for the witness, your link is talking about eyewitness...this was not an eyewitness in this case. Nor was it "suggestive" the officer plainly stated it was Zimmerman.
And again we've had several blatant instances of media bias in this case...are we sure we are getting the whole story? |
Do you know the rules for the specific district that the case will be tried in? The officer stated it was Zimmerman, yet the witness said that they thought it was Martin. I never said it was suggestive, I said it was leading, and clearly a violation of due process, and it is even more egregious now that we have much more proof that the witness was was right, the forensic experts, and the officer was wrong.
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You are aware that Trayvon's father has said that it's not his son's voice crying for help on the 911 tape though?
Being his father I would think he would know his son's voice. Experts on the other hand have been proven to be wrong time and time again on many things. I guess we'll find out in court. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| [. Also that Zimmerman had a violent past can be used in court if the defense opens the door by introducing character evidence. (I believe, I'm not a lawyer, but that's what a few minutes of google suggests.) Try not to say anything silly in response, it just makes you look silly. |
I suggest taking your own advice (the words I bolded.)
Depending on the state and jurisdiction his expunged record may not even be allowed to be used in court...there may be no door regardless of introducing character evidence.
"A little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
As for the witness, your link is talking about eyewitness...this was not an eyewitness in this case. Nor was it "suggestive" the officer plainly stated it was Zimmerman.
And again we've had several blatant instances of media bias in this case...are we sure we are getting the whole story? |
Do you know the rules for the specific district that the case will be tried in? The officer stated it was Zimmerman, yet the witness said that they thought it was Martin. I never said it was suggestive, I said it was leading, and clearly a violation of due process, and it is even more egregious now that we have much more proof that the witness was was right, the forensic experts, and the officer was wrong.
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You are aware that Trayvon's father has said that it's not his son's voice crying for help on the 911 tape though?
Being his father I would think he would know his son's voice. Experts on the other hand have been proven to be wrong time and time again on many things. I guess we'll find out in court. |
He has since changed his story. We'll find out in court, I'll leave it there. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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Do we have yet ANOTHER media misreporting?
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/04/george-z/
So first we have the claim that Zimmerman was white
Next we have the edited tapes
And now we have the weights.
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In a long attempt to detail the night of the Trayvon Martin killing they include this description of the fatal scuffle:
However it started, witnesses described to the 911 dispatcher what resulted: the neighborhood watch coordinator, 5-foot-9 and 170 pounds, and the visitor, 6-foot-1 and 150, wrestling on the ground. |
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| I am serious � if the Times is correctly telling us that Zimmerman was roughly Martin�s size, that changes the whole theme of the scary large man stalking the overmatched boy. Do I need links to document how widespread that meme is? |
So Zimmerman is 170 llbs and Martin is 150? Not so implausible that Martin thought he could take Zimmerman...he was taller and not all that lighter.
Also why is everyone saying that he's not a member of a neighborhood watch?
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Plus, lawyers say, Exhibit A would be a newsletter sent by the association to residents in February, the same month as the shooting. It said Zimmerman was the go-to person for residents who had been the victims of a crime.
Under the heading "Neighborhood Watch," the newsletter's message recommended that residents first call police and then "please contact our Captain, George Zimmerman ... so he can be aware and help address the issue with other residents." |
We've got a newsletter from the association itself calling Zimmerman the Captain.
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/local/homeowner-association-could-be-sued-in-martin-case-040912 |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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http://therealgeorgezimmerman.com/Home_Page.php
looks like Zimmerman is looking to pull a few quick bucks from right wingers with the flag background, Thomas Paine and Edmund Burke quotes. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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And as an interesting side note, we may get to witness the dissolution of all Neighborhood Watch programs as a result of that lawsuit. Score one for the culture of infinite liability. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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Can't blame the guy for making the site, given that the media has pretty much robbed him of any job in the future, thanks to their coverage. Even if he's proven innocent, they've destroyed his life.
By the way, the hit counter on that site is all over the place. It changes by page. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
Can't blame the guy for making the site, given that the media has pretty much robbed him of any job in the future, thanks to their coverage. Even if he's proven innocent, they've destroyed his life.
By the way, the hit counter on that site is all over the place. It changes by page. |
Yeah, I'm not surprised that he has a site, but I am surprised at how shoddy it is. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
Can't blame the guy for making the site, given that the media has pretty much robbed him of any job in the future, thanks to their coverage. Even if he's proven innocent, they've destroyed his life.
By the way, the hit counter on that site is all over the place. It changes by page. |
Yeah, I'm not surprised that he has a site, but I am surprised at how shoddy it is. |
Probably just thrown together quickly by a friend. In any case, it's something, and if you've got shady groups trying to make money off of you in such a situation, it's good to get something up for not which can be updated. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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Still reading along, curious about the outcome but unwilling to choose a side on most issues this case raises. However...
| comm wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| Zimmerman called 911 before speaking to Martin. He was advised it was best NOT to pursue Martin. He used abusive language in his discription (f*cking blah blah). Zimmerman followed him anyway. |
No, Zimmerman lost Martin (that means he stopped following) and was confronted by Martin on his way back to his vehicle.
| sirius black wrote: |
| Remove race from this. If it was a white kid dressed in a hoodie with the same exact set of circumstances I honestly believe very few people would be supporting Zimmerman or be clinging to any shred of hope and any implausible reasoning that he would be innocent. |
Here's what matters to me (and the law): There is no reason not to believe that Martin initiated the physical attack (since physical evidence and witnesses indicate he was on top of Zimmerman at the time of the shooting and had received no fight injuries). If an aggressor has his victim pinned on the ground and continues to deal potentially long-term damage, the victim is justified in using lethal force. There is no evidence to support the idea that Zimmerman attacked first, even if you really feel like that's what happened. And there is definitely no evidence to prove that Zimmerman was the aggressor.
I think the difference in our views isn't about race, but in our interpretation of State law. As I understand it, if you can't prove that a crime was committed, then Zimmerman is in the clear. Since evidence and witnesses indicate that he probably didn't start the fight (or he'd have landed at least one blow) it's impossible to prove that Z is at fault. That may be a clinical way of looking at it, but it's true regardless of the races involved. |
The part I bolded may be in the law, but I definitely would not support intentional lethal force being used by something like a gun if the attacker is empty-handed. Try for an arm or a leg if possible while defending yourself, the adrenaline may be flowing and things surely may happen too fast and end in the same result, but I couldn't live with blowing someone away intentionally if I'm getting pounded. It shouldn't even enter my mind.
An armed assailant, all bets are off really. I'd still prefer not to use lethal force.
It's just my personal take on the law itself. Both sides in this thread are making some sensible points, so I hope that justice prevails, whatever the evidence reveals. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| The part I bolded may be in the law, but I definitely would not support intentional lethal force being used by something like a gun if the attacker is empty-handed. Try for an arm or a leg if possible while defending yourself, the adrenaline may be flowing and things surely may happen too fast and end in the same result, but I couldn't live with blowing someone away intentionally if I'm getting pounded. It shouldn't even enter my mind. |
That's actually why I own a 9mm rather than a larger and more lethal caliber pistol (which I don't carry due to the massive responsibility involved). And it's important to note that, movies and TV aside, shooting someone in a limb is never a good idea for amateur shooters. You'll miss, or likely hit your own limb if you're in a brawl. Honestly I'm surprised at the restraint of Zimmerman only firing one shot, but it is unfortunate that in this case the number of shots required to stop the attack also resulted in death. As to whether it should enter your mind to shoot someone or not... I've never had the pleasure of having my head cracked repeatedly against the pavement and having the choice to shoot or not come into my mind. Though "anything to make this stop" seems likely for me personally. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
| What people need to learn is that they aren't just randomly allowed to attack someone. Keep your hands to yourself, or suffer the consequences. |
In the whole of this thread...this is probably the most frustrating aspect of this entire case.
We don't know who started the physical altercation.
Of course we have Zimmerman's account of things.
And that is basically all we have.
Throughout this entire thread, people have made strong arguments based on the assumption that is was Martin who through the first punch.
Unfortunately, no matter how strong the argument, it is based on a faulty premise.
As for who is guilty of what...tough call there.
While they both can't be innocent, both of them can be guilty.
But the result so far is that one paid with his life, and it seems pretty obvious, one way or the other, the other will pay for the rest of his. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Yup. Keep yer hands to yer self. |
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Swampfox10mm
Joined: 24 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, it looks to me as if Zimm. did himself in. His attorneys quit. I think there may be more to this than is being reported. It sounds as if he spoke with the prosecutor and maybe heard something he didn't like, then ran. I imagine he feels he will never be safe in jail. Also wonder if he got a huge chunk of cash off of his site and an offer from someone to disappear forever.
Now we have to listen to the media circus indefinitely. The search for Zimmerman every day on CNN. Ugh. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Swampfox10mm wrote: |
Ok, it looks to me as if Zimm. did himself in. His attorneys quit. I think there may be more to this than is being reported. It sounds as if he spoke with the prosecutor and maybe heard something he didn't like, then ran. I imagine he feels he will never be safe in jail. Also wonder if he got a huge chunk of cash off of his site and an offer from someone to disappear forever.
Now we have to listen to the media circus indefinitely. The search for Zimmerman every day on CNN. Ugh. |
This does have interesting timing with the set up of the site and the likelihood of prosecution going forward this week. It does seem as if this whole thing just got more stupid and absurd, here's hoping he's just sick or something rather than making a run for it. |
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