|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
rchristo10
Joined: 14 Jul 2009
|
 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:35 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Subways, including the one she was on, are highly flammable. This became clear with the Daegu attack that ended up with the loss of several people's lives. In retrospect, I think that a nice reaction between the body slam and the total apathy was in order. Snatching the fag was more than called for considering that she was putting everyone's lives in danger (regardless of whether she knew it or not).
Had the cabin caught fire and everyone on it burned to their deaths, the people here supporting passive tactics would likely change their minds or perhaps join the usual blame game. Did someone say, "why didn't someone just take the damn thing from her mouth before it all happened?" |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
Wrong thread
Last edited by Steelrails on Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 5:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| No, I don't. You have set up a false criteria, revealing only how desperate you have become. |
No, you set up a bad premise. You used an absolute. In order to prove an absolute you need a significant body of evidence.
Question- Are 6 videos enough evidence to prove your claim that no one will confront an ajosshi and that a woman will always be confronted and suffer some kind of assault?
Question 2- Do you think she would have been assaulted if she had extinguished her cigarette?
| Quote: |
| If you wanted to refute it, you simply have to provide counter-evidence. You've failed. |
Actually your claim that a woman will always be assaulted has been disproven by the video where she sits in the car (with other men present) and no one does anything.
| Quote: |
If your criterion for acceptable evidence was correct, then science and the law courts would never be able to make a decision or a theory.
In reality judges and scientists make reasonable conclusions based on the evidence before them. |
There's nothing scientific about your claim or the sufficiency of your evidence.
If you made your claim in front of a University panel and presented your 6 videos you would be laughed at. Go ahead and try it.
| Quote: |
| For the second time: do the men who initiated and carried out violent physical assaults on a woman deserve to be charged and punished? Yes or no. |
In one of the videos, yes, clearly. The one with the guy reading the newspaper.
In the case of the umbrella guy, the fact that he was clearly trying to knock out the cigarette and not hit her makes the case grey. She clearly escalated the situation with the beer pouring. Throwing a beer on someone is an assault. Go ahead and walk up to a judge or a cop or a businessperson or a teacher and in an argument throw beer in their face and see what happens. You will be charged and if they strike you, they probably won't be. Also you should note that in her reckless spraying of beer she also soaked the lady who was sitting next to the guy. Now the important thing though, is that when she is is shoved, she is not facing the guy, so the guy could very likely be charged and probably should be.
As for the umbrella given that the ajosshi appeared to be deliberately trying to avoid contact with her and only with the cigarette, that might be sufficient to show that he did not assault her first, especially considering that smoking in such a manner could be construed as assault and that attempting to knock out the cigarette, while avoiding contact with the person, would be seen as proportional.
In the case where she was slammed, she was the one who initially threw an object at the person. The situation then escalated. At one point she was going for her shoe when she was slapped. Also in the video the man appears to be returning to his seat when she returns to confront him. That is big. The confrontation at that moment appeared to be finished when she moves towards him. This one is grey as well, actually more grey considering the particulars, even though its the most vicious. I think though the slam showed malice rather than self defense, so I think the guy should be charged.
There is a difference between being exposed to second hand smoke in a place where smoking is permitted and someone willfully and repeatedly continuing to smoke in a place that is known (and known to the smoker) to be smoke-free and continuing to do so when asked to stop. The thing that would really hurt her if this happened in the US would be her pattern of behavior, her throwing something, and her apparent attempts to escalate the situation.
Julius, I never stated I was against charges. I'm only against your conclusions which lack sufficient evidence and are spoken in absolutist terms.
Instead of using words like "is" "only" "always" "will" "never" and the like, why don't you use "probably" "likely" "possibly" and such.
Do you lack the reading comprehension to differentiate between
A)A woman will always be assaulted.
B)An woman is more likely to be assaulted.
I agree with B. I don't agree with A because there is insufficient evidence to back up your claim, and all it takes is one instance to disprove that statement. Also, odds and probability dictate that statement A should be able to be disproven at least once.
No, I'm not like those ajosshis though. I'm not violent. I'd simply file a frivolous lawsuit and try to cash in.
| Quote: |
| Smoking is not a physical provocation, neither is it a physical assault. |
Now I don't know about Korea, but in the US blowing smoke in someone's face or pouring beer on them can be considered simple assault.
A quick search turned up a law office website confirming that yes, blowing smoke in someone's face is simple assault.
http://www.shepherdandosborne.net/simple_assault.html
Again Julius, do you really want this woman and these incidents to be your cause celebre?
I'm against a lot of the more aggressive smoking bans, but there is no way I'd use this lady as some sort of freedom fighter symbol. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:24 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
| For the second time: do the men who initiated and carried out violent physical assaults on a woman deserve to be charged and punished? Yes or no. |
In one of the videos, yes, clearly. |
There, it wasn't that hard now was it?
Steelrails finally agrees that a guy beating a woman half to death for smoking is, in fact, wrong.
Congratulations, you've made it finally.
I agree the woman was a nuisance, but he went waay too far.
| Quote: |
| blowing smoke in someone's face. |
Nowehere in the videos we do we see her deliberately "blow smoke into someones face". She is sat smoking the same as anyone in a bar, on a park bench, whatever.
| Quote: |
| A quick search turned up a law office website confirming that yes, blowing smoke in someone's face is simple assault. |
Maybe so, but there are different degrees of assault.
Your mistake is trying to equate smoking...to an attack with a baseball bat or knife.
| Rchristo wrote: |
| Subways, including the one she was on, are highly flammable. This became clear with the Daegu attack |
Actually the Daegu train was of an older, different type- it had plastic matting on the floors and vinyl seat cushions etc. The subway car in the vid is newer, modified to be more fire resistant.
You are also ignoring the fact that the Daegu fire was deliberately started by a guy with containers of gasoline and a lighter, not a cigarette.
Maybe the cigarette would have exploded into a fireball the instant it fell onto the metal floor... but I doubt it.
| Quote: |
| Snatching the fag was more than called for considering that she was putting everyone's lives in danger |
Actually while she was holding the cigarette the situation was under control. Snatching at it and initiating a violent struggle put the situation out of control.
Never mind the guy who tries to knock it out of her hand, thats even worse.
What did they expect to happen by initiating violent physical intervention on the woman? That she would say sorry, do a bow and a curtsey?
In any case they knew that they would likely get away with assaulting a woman ..so there was little risk involved.
All we can agree on, I think, is that they all acted wrongly..and should simply have called the subway guards..who would have apprehended her within a couple of minutes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
here, it wasn't that hard now was it?
Steelrails finally agrees that a guy beating a woman half to death for smoking is, in fact, wrong.
Congratulations, you've made it finally.
I agree the woman was a nuisance, but he went waay too far. |
Pffft, I was there from the beginning.
| Quote: |
| Nowehere in the videos we do we see her deliberately "blow smoke into someones face". She is sat smoking the same as anyone in a bar, on a park bench, whatever. |
In one video she does hold it rather close to some guy's face. Also, the fact that she is smoking in a subway car, a place known for a smoking ban, and refusing to cease when asked could bump it up into the "blowing smoke in one's face".
| Quote: |
Maybe so, but there are different degrees of assault.
Your mistake is trying to equate smoking...to an attack with a baseball bat or knife. |
Where did I say that? I established that it was simple assault, which includes among other things, punching and slapping someone.
| Quote: |
You are also ignoring the fact that the Daegu fire was deliberately started by a guy with containers of gasoline and a lighter, not a cigarette.
Maybe the cigarette would have exploded into a fireball the instant it fell onto the metal floor... but I doubt it. |
And you are also ignoring how relatively sealed a subway car is compared to a bar or a park bench. That and smoke can trigger extreme discomfort and even asthma attacks.
| Quote: |
| Actually while she was holding the cigarette the situation was under control. |
No it wasn't. She was continuing to smoke.
| Quote: |
| All we can agree on, I think, is that they all acted wrongly..and should simply have called the subway guards..who would have apprehended her within a couple of minutes. |
And as we can see, her getting removed from a subway has been highly effective in her ceasing this behavior.
This all starts with her engaging in her illegal activity and refusing to stop. If she followed the law, this would not have happened. If she stopped when asked, this would not have happened. And maybe even if she said "I've had a crappy day" and gave some sob story, the people might have just grumbled and ignored her. But when asked to stop, she insults the person asking her to cease her rude, selfish, and illegal activity.
A victim? Hardly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Come on now...spitting or blowing smoke in someone's face is offensive and wrong but it does not constitute an assault. That is a bit much.
Still, if someone blows smoke in someone's face intentionally AND does so in a non-smoking area then that person is asking for trouble. |
Why wouldn't it be an assault?
You're in Canada, man... Go try to spit on a cop and see what the carge is. 
But you're right, this woman seems to be looking for trouble... Repeatedly, and has found it.... Repeatedly. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Come on now...spitting or blowing smoke in someone's face is offensive and wrong but it does not constitute an assault. That is a bit much.
Still, if someone blows smoke in someone's face intentionally AND does so in a non-smoking area then that person is asking for trouble. |
Why wouldn't it be an assault?
You're in Canada, man... Go try to spit on a cop and see what the carge is.
But you're right, this woman seems to be looking for trouble... Repeatedly, and has found it.... Repeatedly. |
It is most often classified as "Battery", but depending on where you are, and the nature of the offense, the charge can range from 'Misdemeanor' to "Felony Assault" and can carry a jail term. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 7:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Come on now...spitting or blowing smoke in someone's face is offensive and wrong but it does not constitute an assault. That is a bit much.
Still, if someone blows smoke in someone's face intentionally AND does so in a non-smoking area then that person is asking for trouble. |
If the second person in question was severely allergic to cigarette smoke then it could easily meet the legal requirements for assault.
| Quote: |
The act required for an assault must be overt. Although words alone are insufficient, they might create an assault when coupled with some action that indicates the ability to carry out the threat. A mere threat to harm is not an assault; however, a threat combined with a raised fist might be sufficient if it causes a reasonable apprehension of harm in the victim...
There can be no assault if the act does not produce a true apprehension of harm in the victim. There must be a reasonable fear of injury... |
Are you thinking of battery?
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/assault |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Come on now...spitting or blowing smoke in someone's face is offensive and wrong but it does not constitute an assault. That is a bit much.
Still, if someone blows smoke in someone's face intentionally AND does so in a non-smoking area then that person is asking for trouble. |
Why wouldn't it be an assault?
You're in Canada, man... Go try to spit on a cop and see what the carge is.
But you're right, this woman seems to be looking for trouble... Repeatedly, and has found it.... Repeatedly. |
Spit on a cop and you probably get arrested.
Spit on a guy in the subway and you will NOT be arrested unless you get a complete freak. The filing of ASSAULT charges for being spat on will lead to a break out of uncontrollable laughter at most canadian cop stations...but hey go and try it. These over worked police officers will gladly want to waste their time with paperwork filing an assault charge based on spittle. 
For ModEdit and giggles: http://www.lawyers.ca/statutes/criminal_code_of_canada_assault.htm
Still, stretched to the maximum limit of ludicrousness, perhaps spitting on someone can qualify as the distant retarded cousin of assault. I would think ANY reasonable cop would try to avoid charges being filed on such a thin base but hey that may be just my perception of things. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Come on now...spitting or blowing smoke in someone's face is offensive and wrong but it does not constitute an assault. That is a bit much.
Still, if someone blows smoke in someone's face intentionally AND does so in a non-smoking area then that person is asking for trouble. |
Why wouldn't it be an assault?
You're in Canada, man... Go try to spit on a cop and see what the carge is.
But you're right, this woman seems to be looking for trouble... Repeatedly, and has found it.... Repeatedly. |
It is most often classified as "Battery", but depending on where you are, and the nature of the offense, the charge can range from 'Misdemeanor' to "Felony Assault" and can carry a jail term. |
Wow!
I would dearly like to meet the cop and the judge who arrested, prosecuted and jailed someone for spitting on someone else!
That would make for a heck of a story. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
I've known people to get charged for it - when I was working the door, one guy did it to another right in front of a cop... a minor melee kicked off (pushing and such), and the guy who spat was charged.
Just because you think you'd get laughed out of a station does not mean it isn't assault (or battery).
Circumstances are, or course, at play. But for you to say that it isn't assault... well, that's wrong.
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Come on now...spitting or blowing smoke in someone's face is offensive and wrong but it does not constitute an assault. That is a bit much. |
Perhaps I'm misreading this though.
But Patrick, just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I worked the door in Calgary for 5+ years, plus volunteered with CPS... and I HAVE seen someone charged for this (although, I have to admit, I'm not sure of the actual wording of the charge).
edit: a quick google search will shot that it does happen... here's one example |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
Not saying it does not happen. I also have seen "spitting incidents" in Korea and where I live now. I realize it happens. An old man spat on my shoe in Busan years ago. He did on purpose. We had words but I would never have tried to have the guy charged for it.
I also happen to think that someone spitting on someone else is not an assault and stands next to no change of leading to charges, prosecution and conviction.
I personally think that the pendulum has swung too far now but that is just my opinion.
Heck is someone wants to waste the police and court's time filing and pursuing an assault or battery charge for spitting then it is their choice but I find that silly, trivial and an unecessary clogging of an already taxed legal system or in short cops have better things to do than file assault charges for spitting...in my opinion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I think spitting in and of itself would not be significant. However if someone spat or blew smoke or poured a beer on someone and a fight broke out, if someone did one of those things first it might have significant weight into how the case gets sorted out. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 5:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/03/09/us-crime-spitting-idUSN0727718920070309
| Quote: |
Yes, spitting in the face is crime, court rules
Thu, Mar 8 2007
SAN FRANCISCO | Fri Mar 9, 2007 7:45am EST
(Reuters) - A man who intentionally spat at another can be charged with criminal assault, a U.S. appeals court ruled on Wednesday.
Jeffrey Lewellyn was sentenced to two years probation and 50 hours of community service after he spat in 2004 at a patient who swore at him on the grounds of a Veterans Administration Medical Center in Walla Walla, Washington.
He appealed the conviction, arguing that spitting did not constitute an assault, but the U.S. 9th Circuit Court of Appeals disagreed.
"Intentionally spitting on another person is an offensive touching that rises to the level of simple assault," the three-judge panel wrote. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
|
| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steelrails wrote: |
| I established that it was simple assault, which includes among other things, punching and slapping someone. |
So now you're equating smoking with punching someone?
If you think those two are on the same level...then you really have a long way to go.
But lets see some evidence for your claim. Public smokers getting long jail sentences for "assault". Link? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
