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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Again, if the subway rate was always 1500 won would you have noticed or raise a stink? |
Again, if a bullfrog had wings it wouldn't bump its bottom every time it hopped. |
So it doesn't matter that overall the price is quite affordable and reasonable. What matters is that it costs you more.
I mean 70 bucks a month to go to and from your job at a rapid pace? That doesn't sound like a rip off.
| Quote: |
| . Time to ride the subway and subsidize the ever growing group of old folks. |
Again, at one point they subsidized you.
And isn't it ridiculous that you are complaining about subsidizing old people, when the vast majority of the subway system is subsidized by everyone, including people who drive cars and don't use it.
| Quote: |
| Sure, 500 won isn't that much - FOR YOU. But when you've got a family and kids and you budget everything, it adds up. |
Then don't ride the subway.
| Quote: |
| As parents, that was their RESPONSIBILITY. I have NO responsibility to subsidize Lee Gun Hee's free subway ride. |
So all the responsibilities are everyone else's but yours?
That's how life works- "They" took care of "you", and as they get older "you" take care of "them".
And people who drive cars have no responsibility to subsidize your subway rides, but they do it and you take advantage of it.
| Quote: |
| And when I'm old I expect to pay my way. |
Lofty words that many a person will end up eating. How many people have said that they don't plan on being a charity case when they're old? How many people end up so? This tends to be one of those things highly dependent on fate and not "because I said so". Stroke at 50 and guess what? You're probably going to be on the dole. What are you not going to have a heart attack/cancer/stroke/any other disease because you say so? Because you save some money? Because you eat right?
| Quote: |
| Self-respect and self-reliance are tow things you need to work very hard at. |
Have plenty of that. I'm not the one getting on a subway car and glowering at old people and looking at them as freeloaders through my narrow perspective that has no sense of perspective.
I'm the one who has no problem paying more so that old people can enjoy a free ride. I'm the one trying to make them happy, not more uncomfortable. I'm the one who understands that as a child, people subsidized me, and when I'm old, there is a good chance I may end up using a government subsidy.
I'll follow that advice, if maybe you agree to work on self-ishness and acknowledging that as a child you weren't self-reliant and as an old person, there's a good chance you won't be as well.
It's called charity and compassion, two virtues far more important than saving a few shekels.
| Quote: |
| So no, don't help them and yes, they are freeloaders. The problem is that many are still thinking they're in the poorest country on earth and Confucianism telling them that age exempts the elderly from having manners. I don't wish them any ill will but Korea will be a better place in 20 years or so when they've mostly died off. |
You do realize that Korea is what it is today, for better and for worse, because of them, right? You are able to gallivant about on the subway and frolick in Hongdae and enjoy many trappings of modern life because of the work those people did.
And sorry, but I bet if we totaled how much government money those elderly people have received vs. how much government money you have received in your life (education, water, etc.), you probably have received far more than them.
Your life didn't begin at 18 and you aren't in a vacuum. |
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nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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It's a two way street, Red. People who ride the subway exclusively mean less traffic on the street for those who drive. EVERY person in society gains a benefit from public transportation. So EVERY person should be paying into said system.
The rest of your stuff is classic Red. Smells like Noryangjin in here.
If the price of the subway was originally 1500, would people still be complaining? If they were seeing upwards of a 70% hike in fares, absolutely. You're saying that if gasoline were to rise from the current 2000 per liter to 3400 per liter, you wouldn't say a single word? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Again, if the subway rate was always 1500 won would you have noticed or raise a stink? |
Again, if a bullfrog had wings it wouldn't bump its bottom every time it hopped. |
So it doesn't matter that overall the price is quite affordable and reasonable. What matters is that it costs you more.
I mean 70 bucks a month to go to and from your job at a rapid pace? That doesn't sound like a rip off.
| Quote: |
| . Time to ride the subway and subsidize the ever growing group of old folks. |
Again, at one point they subsidized you.
And isn't it ridiculous that you are complaining about subsidizing old people, when the vast majority of the subway system is subsidized by everyone, including people who drive cars and don't use it.
| Quote: |
| Sure, 500 won isn't that much - FOR YOU. But when you've got a family and kids and you budget everything, it adds up. |
Then don't ride the subway.
| Quote: |
| As parents, that was their RESPONSIBILITY. I have NO responsibility to subsidize Lee Gun Hee's free subway ride. |
So all the responsibilities are everyone else's but yours?
That's how life works- "They" took care of "you", and as they get older "you" take care of "them".
And people who drive cars have no responsibility to subsidize your subway rides, but they do it and you take advantage of it.
| Quote: |
| And when I'm old I expect to pay my way. |
Lofty words that many a person will end up eating. How many people have said that they don't plan on being a charity case when they're old? How many people end up so? This tends to be one of those things highly dependent on fate and not "because I said so". Stroke at 50 and guess what? You're probably going to be on the dole. What are you not going to have a heart attack/cancer/stroke/any other disease because you say so? Because you save some money? Because you eat right?
| Quote: |
| Self-respect and self-reliance are tow things you need to work very hard at. |
Have plenty of that. I'm not the one getting on a subway car and glowering at old people and looking at them as freeloaders through my narrow perspective that has no sense of perspective.
I'm the one who has no problem paying more so that old people can enjoy a free ride. I'm the one trying to make them happy, not more uncomfortable. I'm the one who understands that as a child, people subsidized me, and when I'm old, there is a good chance I may end up using a government subsidy.
I'll follow that advice, if maybe you agree to work on self-ishness and acknowledging that as a child you weren't self-reliant and as an old person, there's a good chance you won't be as well.
It's called charity and compassion, two virtues far more important than saving a few shekels.
| Quote: |
| So no, don't help them and yes, they are freeloaders. The problem is that many are still thinking they're in the poorest country on earth and Confucianism telling them that age exempts the elderly from having manners. I don't wish them any ill will but Korea will be a better place in 20 years or so when they've mostly died off. |
You do realize that Korea is what it is today, for better and for worse, because of them, right? You are able to gallivant about on the subway and frolick in Hongdae and enjoy many trappings of modern life because of the work those people did.
And sorry, but I bet if we totaled how much government money those elderly people have received vs. how much government money you have received in your life (education, water, etc.), you probably have received far more than them.
Your life didn't begin at 18 and you aren't in a vacuum. |
More loggorrhea. More simple-mindedness--"that's how life works." More framing the argument with definitons that only you agree on, such as describing subway fares as "reasonable."
Korea is what it is due to lots of things, for example, the U.S. military.
Do soldiers ride free?
So you've been a freeloader most of your life and expect to be one again and so that's why senior citizens should ride for free? What was the title of your senior thesis--"An Ode to Laziness"? |
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IncognitoHFX2
Joined: 15 Mar 2012
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| So no, don't help them and yes, they are freeloaders. The problem is that many are still thinking they're in the poorest country on earth and Confucianism telling them that age exempts the elderly from having manners. I don't wish them any ill will but Korea will be a better place in 20 years or so when they've mostly died off. |
You do realize that Korea is what it is today, for better and for worse, because of them, right? You are able to gallivant about on the subway and frolick in Hongdae and enjoy many trappings of modern life because of the work those people did.
And sorry, but I bet if we totaled how much government money those elderly people have received vs. how much government money you have received in your life (education, water, etc.), you probably have received far more than them.
Your life didn't begin at 18 and you aren't in a vacuum. |
Firstly, no. Just because they had a hard life doesn't mean they have a blank cheque to crap on everyone around them. Being elderly doesn't mean you're entitled to be a bastard. Every person has a responsibility to behave in a way that is civilized, there are no exceptions or excuses for spitting, shoving, sneering and bossing their way through life.
| Quote: |
| And sorry, but I bet if we totaled how much government money those elderly people have received vs. how much government money you have received in your life (education, water, etc.), you probably have received far more than them. |
I guess I didn't grow up in a war torn dictatorship so I can't identify to them but even if I did, it wouldn't be an excuse. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| If the price of the subway was originally 1500, would people still be complaining? If they were seeing upwards of a 70% hike in fares, absolutely. |
I'm saying, what if you were unaware of any price hike? What about the people who get off the plane and hop on the subway?
And just to clarify, seniors should probably be paying a reduced rate, not riding free.
But what the heck, let them ride free. It makes no difference. If you guys don't like the rate, don't ride the subway. You aren't entitled to the subway.
| Quote: |
| such as describing subway fares as "reasonable." |
The rates certainly seem favorable compared to London or New York or Toronto or Sydney.
Considering that, I don't see how you can describe them as anything BUT reasonable. Unless Seoul's rate being significantly cheaper somehow constitutes unreasonable fares.
| Quote: |
| It's a two way street, Red. People who ride the subway exclusively mean less traffic on the street for those who drive. EVERY person in society gains a benefit from public transportation. So EVERY person should be paying into said system. |
What if I walk? I could care less about the traffic.
And it's not like they haven't ever paid in their lifetime. They paid for it with their taxes back in the day. They paid for their fares back when they were younger.
Would it make you feel comfortable if we called the fare you pay now a 'down payment on your future free ride'?
| Quote: |
| Firstly, no. Just because they had a hard life doesn't mean they have a blank cheque to crap on everyone around them. Being elderly doesn't mean you're entitled to be a bastard. Every person has a responsibility to behave in a way that is civilized, there are no exceptions or excuses for spitting, shoving, sneering and bossing their way through life. |
Not every old person acts like this.
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| No. I left Canada at age 22 with $55,000 of student loan debt from a 4 year programme. Other than a lacklustre education in the public school system, I can't think of anything the government would owe me other than the privilege of living in a developed country. |
Were your student loans subsidized in any way? Did you attend a public university??
How much did that education cost? A lot more per year than riding the subway everyday.
What about government health care? Why should I pay for your sickly butt?
So yeah, someone subsidized you. Personally I'm happy they did.
| Quote: |
| I guess I didn't grow up in a war torn dictatorship so I can't identify to them but even if I did, it wouldn't be an excuse. |
No, but its pretty ridiculous for someone who grew up in a country with one of the highest standards of living, with food in their belly and a roof over their head and no invasion, during a time of high technology, to go out and judge people who grew up and lived in the exact opposite and turned that situation into one where now the country is highly developed.
I'm willing to bet if you did grow up in that kind of situation and participated in and saw those changes that you might have a different perspective.
I don't know about you, but if I ever pointed to a large group of old people, many of whom had lived through brutal war, and called them freeloaders my daddy and my moms would have smacked me upside the head for having such a cocky, non-perspective havin attitude. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| I'm saying, what if you were unaware of any price hike? What about the people who get off the plane and hop on the subway? |
(shortened for relevancy)
Did you not get the point of the winged bullfrog comment earlier?
I'm pretty sure people who get off the plane to 1500 won subway prices will say "wow that's pretty cheap."
I'm pretty sure people who started using the line 9 train a year ago will say "another price hike already?"
And I'm pretty sure people who have been here 10 years are like "crap inflation pricing has come back with a vengeance!" Buses and subways were 600 or 700 won when I first arrived. 1500 won is a ~50% increase.
Now consider that the only Koreans who will be riding the subway for the first time are arguably mainly going to be elementary school students on their first solo trip to school or wherever. What does your line of logic as quoted above have to do with anything?
If a bullfrog had wings... |
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nathanrutledge
Joined: 01 May 2008
Location: Marakesh
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Red, according the the IMF data, the United States income is 2.124 times higher than Korea (48,397 vs 22,778). The NYC subway fare is 2.44 times the fare in Korea. Ergo, by saying that the fare in Korea is "reasonable" compared to other cities isn't true. IF we paid 1500 won, then the NYC fare would only be 1.71 times more expensive, making the Seoul subway MORE expensive by comparison.
But it's all rotting fish. We don't life in New York, or London. We live in Seoul.
AND FINALLY YOU ADMIT IT!
| RED HERRING wrote: |
And just to clarify, seniors should probably be paying a reduced rate, not riding free.
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THERE YOU HAVE IT, FOLKS. HE CAN BE REASONED WITH.
The regular folks can pay the 1050, and the seniors can pay 450 - the same rate that children pay. We can close the budget gap and EVERYONE PARTICIPATES IN SOCIETY!
Glad you finally came to your senses. |
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UknowsI
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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The price of the subway will still be low after a 500 won raise, but since we have already had some price increase, I think they should be careful to not make a habit out of it. I think mass transit should be mainly paid by tax money because of all the benefits and that the fare fee should mainly be to stop people from abusing the system and riding the subway unnecessarily.
Likewise, I think the elderly should pay a very low symbolic fee (200-500 won?) fee so it feels like they are actually using a resource when they are taking the subway.
But regarding the subway fee. I can still think of some people who would be affected by the raise, such as university students from poor families. Some uni students live on a very tight budget and has to finance themselves with limited part time work, and as far as I know, there are no subway discount for uni students in Korea. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If the price of the subway was originally 1500, would people still be complaining? If they were seeing upwards of a 70% hike in fares, absolutely. |
I'm saying, what if you were unaware of any price hike? What about the people who get off the plane and hop on the subway?
And just to clarify, seniors should probably be paying a reduced rate, not riding free.
But what the heck, let them ride free. It makes no difference. If you guys don't like the rate, don't ride the subway. You aren't entitled to the subway.
| Quote: |
| such as describing subway fares as "reasonable." |
The rates certainly seem favorable compared to London or New York or Toronto or Sydney.
Considering that, I don't see how you can describe them as anything BUT reasonable. Unless Seoul's rate being significantly cheaper somehow constitutes unreasonable fares.
| Quote: |
| It's a two way street, Red. People who ride the subway exclusively mean less traffic on the street for those who drive. EVERY person in society gains a benefit from public transportation. So EVERY person should be paying into said system. |
What if I walk? I could care less about the traffic.
And it's not like they haven't ever paid in their lifetime. They paid for it with their taxes back in the day. They paid for their fares back when they were younger.
Would it make you feel comfortable if we called the fare you pay now a 'down payment on your future free ride'?
| Quote: |
| Firstly, no. Just because they had a hard life doesn't mean they have a blank cheque to crap on everyone around them. Being elderly doesn't mean you're entitled to be a bastard. Every person has a responsibility to behave in a way that is civilized, there are no exceptions or excuses for spitting, shoving, sneering and bossing their way through life. |
Not every old person acts like this.
| Quote: |
| No. I left Canada at age 22 with $55,000 of student loan debt from a 4 year programme. Other than a lacklustre education in the public school system, I can't think of anything the government would owe me other than the privilege of living in a developed country. |
Were your student loans subsidized in any way? Did you attend a public university??
How much did that education cost? A lot more per year than riding the subway everyday.
What about government health care? Why should I pay for your sickly butt?
So yeah, someone subsidized you. Personally I'm happy they did.
| Quote: |
| I guess I didn't grow up in a war torn dictatorship so I can't identify to them but even if I did, it wouldn't be an excuse. |
No, but its pretty ridiculous for someone who grew up in a country with one of the highest standards of living, with food in their belly and a roof over their head and no invasion, during a time of high technology, to go out and judge people who grew up and lived in the exact opposite and turned that situation into one where now the country is highly developed.
I'm willing to bet if you did grow up in that kind of situation and participated in and saw those changes that you might have a different perspective.
I don't know about you, but if I ever pointed to a large group of old people, many of whom had lived through brutal war, and called them freeloaders my daddy and my moms would have smacked me upside the head for having such a cocky, non-perspective havin attitude. |
You're a one-trick pony, playing the same old sympathy card again and again.
What seems reasonable to you doesn't define reasonable. Just in case you haven't noticed, this isn't New York or Toronto or Sydney. According to you, it's a developing nation. Prices should be commensurate with that.
You've bought into the Joseon way of thinking--I'll give you something, but you, or someone else, is eventually going to have to pay me for it.
You're not being respectful, you're just protecting your right to freeload. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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I saw a bit about this on the news last night... kind of above my level to grasp everything, but one thing that I was able to pick out was that the profit margin has allegedly been too low- they anticipated (or guaranteed, not sure) something like an 8.9% margin but didn't get that, so investors were concerned. The investors are mostly Hyundai (two firms) and then some other big companies as well.
I think there was also something about gov't subsidizing that decreases over the years, but I'm not sure how that was immediately relevant to the proposed price hike.
Has anyone else with better Korean heard any more details on why this was proposed? In spite of the rigorous debate going on about seniors here, in my experience Line 9 isn't a geriatric hotspot, especially compared to lines 1, 2, and the Jungang line. Also, around 6 months ago they increased the number of trains so I had assumed they were doing pretty well. |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| DIsbell wrote: |
| ...something like an 8.9% margin but didn't get that, so investors were concerned. The investors are mostly Hyundai (two firms) and then some other big companies as well. |
lulz investors expected 8.9% off an urban transportation project. What a crock. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The regular folks can pay the 1050, and the seniors can pay 450 - the same rate that children pay. We can close the budget gap and EVERYONE PARTICIPATES IN SOCIETY! |
But since people here are being uptight about it, let's keep it free for seniors and everyone else can pay a little more. Why not do something nice for other people?
| Quote: |
| Red, according the the IMF data, the United States income is 2.124 times higher than Korea (48,397 vs 22,778). The NYC subway fare is 2.44 times the fare in Korea. Ergo, by saying that the fare in Korea is "reasonable" compared to other cities isn't true. IF we paid 1500 won, then the NYC fare would only be 1.71 times more expensive, making the Seoul subway MORE expensive by comparison. |
Actually your data is out of date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
Now compare those costs to London
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/14416.aspx
and Toronto
http://www.ttc.ca/
Seems reasonable to me.
| Quote: |
| Now consider that the only Koreans who will be riding the subway for the first time are arguably mainly going to be elementary school students on their first solo trip to school or wherever. What does your line of logic as quoted above have to do with anything? |
True but those same people have seen the price of oil and gold jump significantly as well. A jump in oil affects everything.
My underlying point is that if 500 won/fare is causing you to get angry and resentful towards senior citizens and pushing to squeeze them out of 500 won, something has gone a little wrong in the head. |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:49 am Post subject: |
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| Zyzyfer wrote: |
| DIsbell wrote: |
| ...something like an 8.9% margin but didn't get that, so investors were concerned. The investors are mostly Hyundai (two firms) and then some other big companies as well. |
lulz investors expected 8.9% off an urban transportation project. What a crock. |
It's also humorous considering the line is only one-third complete and the section that is open had been open for less than three years. Businesses typically do not turn profits right away.
Last edited by flakfizer on Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:53 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Sure, 500 won isn't that much - FOR YOU. But when you've got a family and kids and you budget everything, it adds up. |
Then don't ride the subway.
. |
That's probably what would happen with a large hike: fewer people will use the subway and will resort to driving, taxis and buses. Then what? I guess the only sensible thing would be to raise that fare even more until we get our profit! Of course, the traffic will be worse and the air as well. It definitely in Seoul's and its denizens' interests to keep fares low. |
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highstreet
Joined: 13 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| Do Koreans even care about the increase? I've never heard any of my friends complaining about it. They just complain about work |
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