Korean Job Discussion Forums

[CentralCali]

Speaking of operating illegally, ontheway, a person cannot be legitimately considered an IC if they'e on an E-2 visa. Perhaps the second employer can do so legit, but the first employer, the sponsoring employer cannot do that. If the first employer is listing the employee as an IC then that's only with the tax and pension office, not with immigration. Care to take a leap of logic as to why the sponsoring employer doesn't list the employee as an independent contractor with immigration?

The employers know they're screwing the employees. The employers know those so-called ICs are employees. The employers simply don't want to meet their financial obligations to the employees.

And your posts on the matter are shilling for the scum who cheat people. The funniest thing is that in your last post your wording admits that the so-called ICs are employees. I'm wondering if you realize that.

[Weigookin74]

It may technically be illegal but the Korean gov seems to look the other way and Immigration ignores it once you enter the country. I am not a CDI booster one way or the other, but I just saw an ad yesterday stating up to 31,000 won an hour and an average of 125 hours a month. That would work out to 3,875,000 a month. You can still get a place and buy health and pension. That does seem to cross the 3.5 million threshold I had previously mentioned. If you get overtime some months, it might actually be a good deal at first glance. But, who knows? Maybe there's more than meets the eye. Last time I checked one of their ads a couple of years ago, you had the potential to earn up to 2.8 million a month which would have been a rip off.

But, I'm sure there are many IC positions which are a rip off.

[I-am-me]

I dont understand how an E-2 which is a sponsored visa, can be independent at the same time? You are either sponsored or not sponsored. I think hagwons use it to pay less taxes and less benefits. It sure cant be legal to be both.

[ontheway]

[nachoinkorea]

Ahhh, this again. "If you have an E-2 visa that means the company is sponsoring so that means they MUST pay your health insurance, pension, etc."

People, ontheway is 100% right. IC is based on tax law, it has absolutely positively nothing whatsoever to do with your visa. It amazes me how many people on here think they are experts in visa and tax law when they are clearly not.

I've explained this before on here, I'll do it again:
1. First, let's talk about "full time" workers in Korea. Korean labor law states that if you work 60 hours per month, yes per month, then you are a full-time employee. So if an IC is working 3 hours a day at a job 5 days a week they are considered "full-time". This is how schools are able to provide them with E-2 visas.
2. "But if they are full-time then the school must provide them full benefits, etc.!" - NO, not necessarily. Korean tax law allows all people legally in Korea, ALL PEOPLE, to be registered as either "regular" or "irregular" employees, regardless of how many hours they work or their visa status. If you work at least 60 hours per month and your company declares you a "regular" employee then yes, by law they must provide all legal benefits that you are entitled to. However, if they choose to declare you an "irregular" employee, then they are not required to provide these benefits and then you become an IC. It is the company's discretion on who is "regular" and "irregular", it's their choice. Now, many Korean companies have labor unions that prevent this, however the ESL industry has no such union.
3. As long as the contract is clearly stating that you are an IC and you work at least 60 hours per month then it is perfectly legal for a school to sponsor you on an E-2 and have you work as an IC. If the contract is not clearly written or if it seems to indicate that you will be a "regular" employee but then they declare you an "irregular" employee and give you IC status, then yes that is absolutely illegal.
4. Yes, the idea is that ICs should be given permission to add extra jobs to their visa (provided they have their sponsor's permission and that the other job is not for more hours or pay than the visa sponsor). You can add up to 12 jobs to your E-2 visa (again, provided you have your sponsor's permission). Schools that hire people on IC status and don't give them permission to add jobs are, in my opinion, ripping the teacher off.

I work in HR for a very large international institute, lots of our staff are ICs and we've been using IC contracts for years and we've never had any legal problems. That's probably because we had multiple lawyers go over our contract, which I suspect most schools don't (if they even have a lawyer go over it at all). I don't know ontheway but I suspect s/he is probably in a similar situation to mine and works with visa and labor issues daily.

The IC issue is a tax issue and nothing else. People that come on here and say "But you can't be an IC if you are sponsored on a visa" or "The labor board told me blah blah"... irrelevant. The Ministry of Justice is responsible for your visa (Immigration), nothing else. The Ministry of Labor is responsible for your work conditions (non-financial), nothing else. The Ministry of Education is responsible for your registration, nothing else. The Ministry of Finance is responsible for your taxes...and taxes determine IC status.

If you don't believe me or ontheway, go to the Seoul Global Help Center and speak to a lawyer or go to (everyone's favorite) the Kangnam Labor Law Office and ask them about ICs. They will tell you the same thing we have told you, I know this because we asked them about this (before we talked to our own lawyers) and they said the same thing me and onetheway are telling you now.

[hogwonguy1979]

nacho you and ontheway should be in politics for the bs they are spewing, yeah the tax office stuff is right BUT they are lying through their eye teeth to kimmig, because in order to get immig to give them the E2 they tell them they are going to be a regular employee NOT an IC, kimmig wont give an E2 visa to an IC. I bet the KOREAN contract they submit to immig, for the visa is subtlety different than the one given to the employee and tax office

Here is the proof, ask ontheway or nacho if their companies will give permission for their employees to work at second locations? If no then they are screwing you because that doesn't allow you to be "independent"

people need to run from these companies, they are screwing the foreign employee, but what else is new here, what really stinks here is we have waygooks here doing it, shame on you!!

[nachoinkorea]

No, no, no, no. Your employee does not have to tell Immigration that you are going to be a "regular" employee before Immigration will issue your visa number. Whoever told you that is plain wrong.

My company does not have Korean language contracts, all foreign staff sign an English contract. And at the top of that contract, in huge bold letters, it says INDEPENDENT CONTRACTOR AGREEMENT and never, not in 4 years, have we ever had any problems with it from Immigration, so the Immigration officers clearly know we are using ICs.

Again, I work for a major foreign-owned global institute. Our attorneys are Kim & Chang, the largest law firm in Korea. We had their tax and labor lawyers write up our IC contracts for us. So what you seem to be saying is that you, hogwonguy1979, you know more about South Korean tax, labor, and visa law than the largest law firm in the country?

Just over half of our staff are ICs, and yes we give them permission to add 2nd jobs. Most of them pick jobs with afterschool programs, but some of them get jobs with radio stations and magazines and such. Most of our ICs are pulling in 4+ million KRW per month, usually while still only working 8 hours a day. Most of my staff have been with the company for 3+ years and they constantly refer applicants to me, and most of them apply for the IC position. You said if we give our ICs permission to add 2nd jobs that would be "proof", right? Well, then there's your proof.

You and some of the other posters on here can believe what you want (which you definitely seem to do) but the fact is if you work 60 hours per month and your contract is legally written correctly then it is 100% possible to be an IC and sponsored on an E-2 visa.

Finally, shame on me? Whatever. Me and the onetheway are here providing info and facts. You are providing...nothing, except bitterness.

[CentralCali]

I hope your company gets sued just like CDI has been. Your company's lying to Immigration by telling them that you're the foreign worker's employer and then putting that independent contractor malarkey in the contract. OLD NEWS: Korean court already ruled that regardless of the words the contract uses to describe the person hired, it's the facts of the business relationship that determines the person's actual status. Dollars to donuts the rest of the contract your company has with its foreign workers dictates the worker's hours and working conditions, making the person factually an employee.

You and ontheway should practice your hat-eating skills for when CDI finally loses the suit. Or you could quit beating that lousy drum you're beating and convince your companies to do the ethical thing and quit screwing foreign workers who simply don't know better.

[Weigookin74]

[Weigookin74]

At 3.5 million, after paying your rent, pension, and medical, you should still clear 2.7ish a month. Better than 2.2 or 2.3 Million a month on salary. But, an IC ought to be allowed to take a second job if they want.

[hogwonguy1979]

[nachoinkorea]

Our contracts are written in English, no teacher signs a Korean contract, period. And even in our English contracts that last section clearly states, in English, that in the event of any discrepancy between any English legal agreement and a Korean agreement the English-language document shall be considered valid. Booyah!

We do not "rip off" our staff. Collectively our staff is the most experienced in the country, hands down. We do not hire 23-year kids fresh out of college. Our ICs are guaranteed a minimum number of hours per month, get visa sponsorship, help with housing, permission to add 2nd jobs without any hassles, have the chance to be promoted to management positions (in which case they become "regular" employees and receive all legal benefits that "regular" employees are entitled to), and can even transfer to our other international branches around the world. We even help them with their insurance, even though we are not legally obligated to because we treat our staff professionally. They are managed by other foreign managers and they consistently renew year after year (a quarter of our staff have been with us for 5+ years, and we have a large staff) and our ICs are pulling in up 4+ million KRW per month....yeah, we are so taking advantage of them and ripping them off.

Regarding CDI, I have no idea what's going on with that case. If CDI loses that case, then I can guarantee it won't be because the court says ICs are illegal, but it will be because CDI's contracts were not properly written to properly demonstrate that the instructor was an IC.

Finally, I have given you 2 "experts" 2 suggested contact points for attorneys to ask about the IC status. I've thrown down the gauntlet, go talk to them and report back to us. But I doubt you guys will do that, since you 2 seem to know the law better than lawyers.

[ontheway]