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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| youtuber wrote: |
I've had fabulous experiences with dentists in Korea.
The blanket statement to never get a root canal in Korea is obviously based on one bad experience. |
IMHO, 90% of the arguments and bickering between haters and apologists would immediately vanish if everyone would agree that their anecdotal experience does not apply to ALL Koreans or ALL of Korea.
The problem is that there is and will always be a small, generally dim-witted group of people that keep insisting that their personal experiences must be absolute truths. |
"IMHO" yeah right. Is there anyone on here who actually believes their experience DOES apply to ALL Koreans or ALL of Korea? That's ridiculous. That's more than often just the apologist broad brush/straw man, as almost nobody actually thinks that way, but it would be dimwitted to think that they do.
Of course the vast majority of posters don't mean or even say "ALL" but they might mean a significant amount, enough to consider worthwhile talking about. This is after all a forum about Korea and things that go on in it. Some really silly stuff happens here (just like anywhere) and people are going to talk about it and (gasp) even share some opinions and anecdotes. Deal with it.
But I understand the hypersensitivity of some here and the need to insult others who they feel slight the country in any minor way. It's kind of cute. Have fun with that. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| madoka wrote: |
| youtuber wrote: |
I've had fabulous experiences with dentists in Korea.
The blanket statement to never get a root canal in Korea is obviously based on one bad experience. |
IMHO, 90% of the arguments and bickering between haters and apologists would immediately vanish if everyone would agree that their anecdotal experience does not apply to ALL Koreans or ALL of Korea.
The problem is that there is and will always be a small, generally dim-witted group of people that keep insisting that their personal experiences must be absolute truths. |
Could not agree more.
I saw a dentist regularly while in Korea (about every 8-9 months for cleanings). I had work done twice during my time: two wisdom teeth pulled out and one filling replaced.
The wisdom teeth procedure was done at a specialist and went perfectly well.
The filling replacement was done at another dentist as my regular guy was not available and it went ok but I had to go back because that particular dentist had done a bad job. |
Hmm... more anecdotal experience.
Cool: anecdotes vs. anecdotes.
So, do you hereby agree that your "anecdotal experience does not apply to ALL Koreans or ALL of Korea"?
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That (bolded portion) my friend is PRECISELY my position on these types of topics. I tend to avoid sweeping generalizations because they tend to be innacurate and to grossly distort perception. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| madoka wrote: |
| youtuber wrote: |
I've had fabulous experiences with dentists in Korea.
The blanket statement to never get a root canal in Korea is obviously based on one bad experience. |
IMHO, 90% of the arguments and bickering between haters and apologists would immediately vanish if everyone would agree that their anecdotal experience does not apply to ALL Koreans or ALL of Korea.
The problem is that there is and will always be a small, generally dim-witted group of people that keep insisting that their personal experiences must be absolute truths. |
"IMHO" yeah right. Is there anyone on here who actually believes their experience DOES apply to ALL Koreans or ALL of Korea? That's ridiculous. That's more than often just the apologist broad brush/straw man, as almost nobody actually thinks that way, but it would be dimwitted to think that they do.
Of course the vast majority of posters don't mean or even say "ALL" ... |
No but they will often say something along the lines of "Why do Koreans do X" or "why does Korea do Y"
And if one does not use a qualifier such as "many" or "most" or "some" then yes it is generally assumed that one is talking about the entire group as a whole...you know like when the media starts complaining about foreigners.
Maybe the next time people start complaining about the media's negative portrayal of foreigners and the relevant article doesn't mention the word "ALL" you will be as quick to point that out as well?
And what is hilariously ironic about this post...look at the title and the OP and then read what Makoda wrote again about some foreigners thinking their personal experience equates to absolute truths.
We have a poster having a negative experience at a dentist in Korea...which then equates to "Never get a root canal in Korea" |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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And if one does not use a qualifier such as "many" or "most" or "some" then yes it is generally assumed that one is talking about the entire group as a whole...you know like when the media starts complaining about foreigners.
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I don't think it is assumed that one is talking about the entire group as a whole because that is obviously nonsensical. Why can't you apologists interpret comments like 'Koreans do such and such' as meaning 'I have noticed that this way of behaving is more common in Korea than in other countries'. Then your counter argument would be a long the lines of 'I don't think this behaviour is more common in Korea.' It's very tiresome every time someone makes a generalisation to have someone say 'yes but not all Koreans do this' or as Steelrails always points out 'yes but they do this in America too.' It's obvious why you do this, because by using this argument you can win the debate much more easily. You say 'not all Koreans do this' or 'they do this in America too' and the person who has criticised something about Korea has to admit that this is true. You can then claim to have defeated their argument. If your counter argument was 'I don't think this is a popular trend in Korea' the argument would be much less difficult to resolve effectively. Arguing in this way consistently will just deter anyone from making any generalisation at all. So it will become impossible even to say things like 'French people like wine' or Americans eat a lot of fast food.' The conversation would go like this
A- 'Korean men spit .'
B- What do you mean?
A- Ok I mean a lot of Korean men spit
B -I know lots of Korean men who never spit.
A -Ok I mean more Korean spit compared to men in my country
B - How do know, do you have statistical evidence?
A - Of course not, it's just something I've noticed.
B - You need to have lived here for at least 5 years, speak Korean and have Korean friends before you're allowed to 'notice' things about the place and even after that they'll still be unproven.
A - Ok just forget it, all people in all countries behave in exactly the same way. You happy now?
Maybe this is what you want in the long run but I think it is limiting people's free speech
Last edited by edwardcatflap on Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| I've had plenty of dental work done in Korea. I am 100% satisfied with the work they did. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
A- 'Korean men spit .'
B- What do you mean?
A- Ok I mean a lot of Korean men spit
B -I know lots of Korean men who never spit.
A -Ok I mean more Korean spit compared to men in my country
B - How do know, do you have statistical evidence?
A - Of course not, it's just something I've noticed.
B - You need to have lived here for at least 5 years, speak Korean and have Korean friends before you're allowed to 'notice' things about the place and even after that they'll still be unproven.
A - Ok just forget it, all people in all countries behave in exactly the same way. You happy now? |
The lesson is: stereotype. It's faster.
OTOH, one bad experience from an individual in our in-group means one bad individual; but one bad experience from an individual not in our in-group means 'those people' all suck.
Not having had any experience with root canals here I can't say, but the teeth cleaning with metal prongs definitely seems unnecessarily painful. |
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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:58 am Post subject: |
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Privateer, that's libel of the Korean dentist community. How do you know that every dentist in Korea uses metal prongs, and only to cause "unnecessary" pain? Have you been to every dentist in Korea? Please provide links to substantiate this.
Furthermore, you should know that there are also dentists in the West who use metal prongs to clean teeth. Dentists just like Frank Alley, DDS, and Katie Warner, DDS (http://portagedds.com/Services.aspx) and Mathews Dental (http://www.themathewsdental.com/cleaning.html). I cannot attest with 100% certainty, however, that the pain these Western dentists cause with these prongs is unnecessary.
Last edited by Son Deureo! on Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:25 am; edited 2 times in total |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:16 am Post subject: |
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The lesson is: stereotype. It's faster.
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Yes that's right. And remember we can stereotype about positive things as well as negative. It's how we are able to have a normal conversation without having to sound like politicians all the time. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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And if one does not use a qualifier such as "many" or "most" or "some" then yes it is generally assumed that one is talking about the entire group as a whole...you know like when the media starts complaining about foreigners.
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(1) I don't think it is assumed that one is talking about the entire group as a whole because that is obviously nonsensical.
(2) Why can't you apologists interpret comments like 'Koreans do such and such' as meaning 'I have noticed that this way of behaving is more common in Korea than in other countries'. Then your counter argument would be a long the lines of 'I don't think this behaviour is more common in Korea.' It's very tiresome every time someone makes a generalisation to have someone say 'yes but not all Koreans do this' or as Steelrails always points out 'yes but they do this in America too.' It's obvious why you do this, because by using this argument you can win the debate much more easily. You say 'not all Koreans do this' or 'they do this in America too' and
(3)the person who has criticised something about Korea has to admit that this is true. You can then claim to have defeated their argument. If your counter argument was 'I don't think this is a popular trend in Korea' the argument would be much less difficult to resolve effectively.
(4) Arguing in this way consistently will just deter anyone from making any generalisation at all. So it will become impossible even to say things like 'French people like wine' or Americans eat a lot of fast food.' The conversation would go like this
A- 'Korean men spit .'
B- What do you mean?
A- Ok I mean a lot of Korean men spit
B -I know lots of Korean men who never spit.
A -Ok I mean more Korean spit compared to men in my country
B - How do know, do you have statistical evidence?
A - Of course not, it's just something I've noticed.
B - You need to have lived here for at least 5 years, speak Korean and have Korean friends before you're allowed to 'notice' things about the place and even after that they'll still be unproven.
A - Ok just forget it, all people in all countries behave in exactly the same way. You happy now?
(5)Maybe this is what you want in the long run but I think it is limiting people's free speech |
I took the liberty of slightly editing your post and adding numbers for greater clairification.
1. You claim that you don't think it is assumed that one is talking about the entire group as a whole. The OP in his original post certainly is. He included the whole of Korea in his sweeping generalization. But let's go on and demolish the rest of your points.
2. Why can't the bashers use qualifications? You know like saying "why do SOME Korean men spit?" To which we would reply "why yes SOME Korean men do spit." And peace and harmony would reign on this board.
3. However this rarely happens. When we prove an argument wrong, people will back-track and twist and go through all manner of contortions to avoid admitting they are wrong.
4. I haven't noticed any decrease in the number of generalizations or of the people who make them.
5. As for free speech...we don't have free speech on this site anyway. The TOS restricts that. As for the permitted speech on this site...see number 4 |
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Son Deureo!
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
2. Why can't the bashers use qualifications? You know like saying "why do SOME Korean men spit?" To which we would reply "why yes SOME Korean men do spit." And peace and harmony would reign on this board.
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Would "Why do so many Korean men spit?" make you feel better? |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Son Deureo! wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
2. Why can't the bashers use qualifications? You know like saying "why do SOME Korean men spit?" To which we would reply "why yes SOME Korean men do spit." And peace and harmony would reign on this board.
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Would "Why do so many Korean men spit?" make you feel better? |
It certainly would have the significant benefit of being a more measured statement and it also includes that wonderful and vastly underused term of WHY. Hopefully the next step after WHY would be to actually try to UNDERSTAND where the behaviour comes from and why it occurs instead of just rushing to judgement and ranting....
I know, I know...too much to ask for. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:31 am Post subject: |
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[quote]I took the liberty of slightly editing your post and adding numbers for greater clairification.
1. You claim that you don't think it is assumed that one is talking about the entire group as a whole. The OP in his original post certainly is. He included the whole of Korea in his sweeping generalization. But let's go on and demolish the rest of your points.
I didn't read the OP's post but I assume he claimed one bad experience with a route canal treatment meant all Korean dentists are incompetent. From my experiences and from what I've heard from others, this is not true
2. Why can't the bashers use qualifications? You know like saying "why do SOME Korean men spit?" To which we would reply "why yes SOME Korean men do spit." And peace and harmony would reign on this board.
If bashers said 'some Korean men spit' that would be a completely different point and obviously one that you would not be able to argue against because it would be indisputable. . As I tried to say before when 'bashers' as you call them come on here and make an observation about the way people behave in Korea they are generally talking about things people do that are more prevalent here than they are in their own countries. That is always the basis for the argument. As I think you know
3. However this rarely happens. When we prove an argument wrong, people will back-track and twist and go through all manner of contortions to avoid admitting they are wrong. Ok
4. I haven't noticed any decrease in the number of generalizations or of the people who make them. Ok
5. As for free speech...we don't have free speech on this site anyway. The TOS restricts that. As for the permitted speech on this site...see number 4 Ok
Last edited by edwardcatflap on Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
I don't think it is assumed that one is talking about the entire group as a whole because that is obviously nonsensical. |
So I take it you'd find no offense if I said:
Why must British expats be the biggest wankers in the world? Seems like Jeremy Clarkson's characterization of them being whinging poms, because they�re all failures is spot on. |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
"IMHO" yeah right. Is there anyone on here who actually believes their experience DOES apply to ALL Koreans or ALL of Korea? That's ridiculous. |
So I'm left with the impression that you've actually never read Dave's before. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
The lesson is: stereotype. It's faster.
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Yes that's right. And remember we can stereotype about positive things as well as negative. It's how we are able to have a normal conversation without having to sound like politicians all the time. |
No! You MUST put multiple qualifiers and disclaimers into every sentence, or a few posters on here will think you mean ALL Koreans, ALL the time. |
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