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The Sultan of Seoul
Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Location: right... behind.. YOU
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 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 6:37 am Post subject: |
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@YTGND
Simply no.
Just so off base and out there I'm not bothering to respond to each 'point' you 'tried' to make.
The first one is good enough.
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| 1. It's not the school's fault or responsibility to help the teacher pay off the teacher's personal debt. |
No but it is there responsibility to pay the teacher on the contracted date. Funilly enough, so they can do things, like you know, um make payments on time, pay rent on time (not everyone gets an apt from the school) buy food and live comfortabley without haivng to hold out until whenever the boss decides to pay FOR THE WORK THEY HAVE DONE TIMELY WHICH EARNS THE SCHOOL MONEY.
I bet you're one of the posters that agrees with giving over your facebook deets to potential employers.
Hoe do you KNOW the teacher has saved all the money you claim. As mentioned I have several friends that arrived broke and pay all but enough to live on off of their debts each month, they simply have no money left over to build that kind of nest egg. Talk about creating your own imaginary scenario to prove arguments you seemed to have pulled out of thin air..! |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| Son Deureo! wrote: |
| cincynate wrote: |
| As long as they are paying you, what is the big deal? Keep your eyes open for signs that the school is failing. Otherwise, if this is the only issue, I wouldn't make a big deal of it. Common practice in Korea, as I understand. |
Chronically late pay IS a sign that the school is failing. At best, it's a sign that the boss is seriously disorganized, but more likely the business is operating hand-to-mouth and is having trouble making payroll. |
I think that more often than not, it's simply due to lack of organization (or disregard for organization). It can be one sign of a failing business, but if that's the case then it's usually accompanied by other signs.
If you're getting paid late and worried that it might be due to lack of income at the school, then watch for these other signs.
-decreasing number of students
-other staff recently fired/let go/quit (the secretary is often the first to go)
Some smaller signs that may be due to bad business but are more often due to a cheap boss (which in it's own right is a bad sign):
-boss is very strict about turning off lights in rooms or hallways while they aren't being used.
-similarly, boss is very strict about wasting other resources like the photocopier, heating/aircon, paper, markers, etc.
-boss is stealing electricity from a public source (e.g. from external or corridor lighting)
-boss is overly stressed a lot more than in the past
-boss wants to negotiate something with you related to money (e.g. overtime) |
^ all of the above
OP. Read through the above. Your school may be in financial trouble. There are multiple signs to look for, but paying more than a day or two late is a big one.
If you decide to quit, you should give your school proper notice according to the contract. Try to find a new job first and get a letter of release. If you can't get a letter of release you might need new documents to get a new job, so you might want to get these in order first so you don't have to go without a job.
If you think that your school is showing other signs of impending failure, then you should get busy on finding a new job and get ready to jump. If you lose your job because the school fails or releases you for financial reasons you can usually transfer your visa to a new job.
As to the other general discussion on this topic:
A school has an obligation to pay its teachers on time according to the terms of the contract. A teacher has the right to expect to be paid the proper amount on the proper day.
It's true that stuff happens and sometimes your pay can be late for a valid reason and you should be understanding: Maybe the bookkeeper is suddenly injured or ill or has a death in the family which could delay everyone being paid for a day or two, for example. But, even under such circumstances, the school should be able to work around the situation and manage to pay its employees and important vendors as well - at least within a day or two.
A properly managed organization has a cash flow management system in place that ensures that it has enough cash on hand to pay its bills on the day they are due, with employees first in line followed by legally required payments and essential vendors. In most cases, paying employees late is a sign of bad management and financial trouble of some kind.
It's also true that a wise individual has a financial cushion and that someone who has taught in Korea for 6 months or more has had enough time to establish a cushion or rainyday fund to get by on for a week or two in case of an emergency. However, this does not relieve a school of its obligation to pay on time, according to the terms agreed to in the contract.
The fact that the labor board requires a period of two weeks to pass prior to taking action is a practical consideration which does not eliminate the obligation of the employer to pay on time, although it does actually work in favor of the employer as a two week grace period. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
[
Being regularly paid late is a lot better than not being paid the first month and having to roll that over to the third month like they do with public schools because of the payment system. |
A few 'private' public schools may do that.
Most public schools pay on the 25th regardless. If you didn't complete the entire month then you get paid on a pro rata basis. If a public school is paying you like you describe above then it's one of two things. Either you were hired directly by the school or something shady is going on. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| The Sultan of Seoul wrote: |
@YTGND
Simply no.
Just so off base and out there I'm not bothering to respond to each 'point' you 'tried' to make.
The first one is good enough.
| Quote: |
| 1. It's not the school's fault or responsibility to help the teacher pay off the teacher's personal debt. |
No but it is there responsibility to pay the teacher on the contracted date. Funilly enough, so they can do things, like you know, um make payments on time, pay rent on time (not everyone gets an apt from the school) buy food and live comfortabley without haivng to hold out until whenever the boss decides to pay FOR THE WORK THEY HAVE DONE TIMELY WHICH EARNS THE SCHOOL MONEY.
I bet you're one of the posters that agrees with giving over your facebook deets to potential employers.
Hoe do you KNOW the teacher has saved all the money you claim. As mentioned I have several friends that arrived broke and pay all but enough to live on off of their debts each month, they simply have no money left over to build that kind of nest egg. Talk about creating your own imaginary scenario to prove arguments you seemed to have pulled out of thin air..! |
The teacher can fight it. I am not saying they can't. If you want to go ahead. I was explaining why I wouldn't. It's not that hard to shift pay date also. Get paid 15 days more on the 15th then. After that, the hagwon can pay monthly as expected.
As I detailed, there are only 5 days in question that need to be dealt with and those are quite possibly taken up by a security deposit. Your choice. I wouldn't complain if a school was regularly paying me.
I would learn to save up and not spend initially. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="YTMND"]
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A failing school will have 2 important red flags:
1) You will have full classes and get paid on time in the beginning, and then there will be smaller classes. Record when class sizes fall below 5/class and go back up.
2) You will see less regular students show up and students will stop coming after the end of a month/teaching period.
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Mhhh, Let's wonder why students would be leaving....... It might be the quality of the teacher, or let's blame the curriculum which was there before the teacher ....
When bad things happen after you enter that school, the problem might not be the school. |
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Whitey Otez
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: The suburbs of Seoul
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:24 am Post subject: |
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Step one: Have a meeting explaining your grievances to your boss. Be firm. State that you are unhappy and will be giving your notice. This may cause the boss to say bad things about you and your teaching. Take what is said under advisement, but if the boss says negative things then respond that you understand that he agrees that the business relationship is poor and that therefore a release should not be a problem.
Step two: Be ready to move at a moment's notice. Teach like your life depends on it. Say noting bad about any of it to the other teachers or the students. Don't do or say anything to rock the boat. Go quietly.
Step three: In future interviews, do not say anything bad about the school or the boss. Say that you are looking for a way to improve yourself professionally and there was nothing there to improve yourself professionally. Ask smart questions to current teachers, see the school and observe how it is running personally.
In response to a couple of other posters here, don't let anyone blame you for the school paying you late. You did the time, and the school already got paid for your time and effort. Bottom line: the school is breaking the contract, not you. |
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Whitey Otez
Joined: 31 May 2003
Location: The suburbs of Seoul
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
When bad things happen after you enter that school, the problem might not be the school. |
The problem is always the school. The school hired the teachers. The school has final approval on curriculum. The school is responsible for making sure teachers are performing and perhaps even improving. The school is responsible for marketing its product.
Quite often, the school is run by a person who doesn't know much more English than, "parents are complaining." They have no idea about their market. They have no concern beyond lamenting that their school isn't a giant ATM. They do nothing as the ship sinks, opting to blame poor teachers (that they hired), new competition (because they caused a hole in their market), and the economy/politics (this is legitimate in many cases). |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 1:58 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Juregen"]
| YTMND wrote: |
| Quote: |
A failing school will have 2 important red flags:
1) You will have full classes and get paid on time in the beginning, and then there will be smaller classes. Record when class sizes fall below 5/class and go back up.
2) You will see less regular students show up and students will stop coming after the end of a month/teaching period.
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Mhhh, Let's wonder why students would be leaving....... It might be the quality of the teacher, or let's blame the curriculum which was there before the teacher ....
When bad things happen after you enter that school, the problem might not be the school. |
Then it's on the school to fire and hire a new teacher. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| Whitey Otez wrote: |
| Juregen wrote: |
When bad things happen after you enter that school, the problem might not be the school. |
The problem is always the school. The school hired the teachers. The school has final approval on curriculum. The school is responsible for making sure teachers are performing and perhaps even improving. The school is responsible for marketing its product.
Quite often, the school is run by a person who doesn't know much more English than, "parents are complaining." They have no idea about their market. They have no concern beyond lamenting that their school isn't a giant ATM. They do nothing as the ship sinks, opting to blame poor teachers (that they hired), new competition (because they caused a hole in their market), and the economy/politics (this is legitimate in many cases). |
You are making a mistake.
There is a difference between being the problem and being responsible for the problem. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 3:52 am Post subject: |
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[quote="YTMND"]
| Juregen wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
| Quote: |
A failing school will have 2 important red flags:
1) You will have full classes and get paid on time in the beginning, and then there will be smaller classes. Record when class sizes fall below 5/class and go back up.
2) You will see less regular students show up and students will stop coming after the end of a month/teaching period.
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Mhhh, Let's wonder why students would be leaving....... It might be the quality of the teacher, or let's blame the curriculum which was there before the teacher ....
When bad things happen after you enter that school, the problem might not be the school. |
Then it's on the school to fire and hire a new teacher. |
Haaa and that is ofcourse very easy to do, as easy as walking away from a dead end job ...
It is obvious most of you don't understand the other side of the fence. Complaining about it seems the easier part. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:14 am Post subject: |
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Haaa and that is ofcourse very easy to do, as easy as walking away from a dead end job ...
It is obvious most of you don't understand the other side of the fence. Complaining about it seems the easier part. |
What point are you trying to make? Are you even reading the thread or just replying to the last comment you see?
What is the other side of the fence? I commented on what a teacher should be prepared to see if they need to get out of a job and what a school should do if they feel they need a new teacher. I am not taking sides here, and it is perfectly legit for either party to give a 30 day notice and move on. |
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D.D.
Joined: 29 May 2008
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2012 4:31 am Post subject: |
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asians hold back on pay because they don't like to part with money and they like to use it as a way to control employees. Not having money makes some employees feel weak and the boss gets a feeling of being in charge.
It happens everywhere in asia and its not a personal thing when it is happening to you. |
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Juregen
Joined: 30 May 2006
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| Quote: |
Haaa and that is ofcourse very easy to do, as easy as walking away from a dead end job ...
It is obvious most of you don't understand the other side of the fence. Complaining about it seems the easier part. |
What point are you trying to make? Are you even reading the thread or just replying to the last comment you see?
What is the other side of the fence? I commented on what a teacher should be prepared to see if they need to get out of a job and what a school should do if they feel they need a new teacher. I am not taking sides here, and it is perfectly legit for either party to give a 30 day notice and move on. |
The premise that most of you have is disturbing to me. There are a few business realities very few are aware of, and do not take into account. But instead it seems that people are adamant about souring the situation and make it difficult to find a solution fitting for all involved.
The 30 days notice is indeed legit, but few are proffesional enough (on both sides) to stick to a nice end game of the contract. Actually, the teachers that broke their contract never gave me 30 days to find replacement, ever, where as I always keep my end of the bargain.
The point I am trying to make is that a labor agreement is a sword with 2 sides, both participants can hurt the other. Easily.
I believe in the simple give value to get value.
Small business don't have budgets for huge HR efforts and rely heavily on the quality of the teacher to make money. You blame them for making the wrong choice, but why did someone with no value to add accept the job anyway, knowing they would screw up ....and get screwed.
The story of Hagwon and NT's is not a black and white story, both are sinners, both make mistakes, and you cannot accept that all the blame falls on one party. |
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nick70100
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Juregen wrote: |
| why did someone with no value to add accept the job anyway, knowing they would screw up ....and get screwed. |
A recruiter told them no experience was necessary, they didn't have a crystal ball to predict the future and see that they would be a bad teacher, and they felt they had nothing to lose (with housing, plane tickets and everything paid for, it may be simply too easy for non-serious teachers to come here).
The business owner has more responsibility simply because he has a lot more at stake. I suppose he can blame the teacher if he wants, but at the end of the day he's going to lose a lot more than the teacher if the business fails.
| Juregen wrote: |
| The story of Hagwon and NT's is not a black and white story, both are sinners, both make mistakes, and you cannot accept that all the blame falls on one party. |
I'll agree with you there. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 11:18 pm Post subject: |
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| But instead it seems that people are adamant about souring the situation and make it difficult to find a solution fitting for all involved. |
So lead by example Mr. Ambiguity. I don't know if you are siding with the teacher, with the school, or what you are trying to state. WHAT IS YOUR POINT? SPIT IT OUT. Specifically, what should happen? What should the teacher do? What should the school do?
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| Actually, the teachers that broke their contract never gave me 30 days to find replacement, ever, where as I always keep my end of the bargain. |
I see now. You have a chip on your shoulder.
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| The point I am trying to make is that a labor agreement is a sword with 2 sides, both participants can hurt the other. Easily. |
That really isn't a point, it's just a theoretical threat in the ESL world. Being Mr. Equalizer is ok if both parties play by the rules. If one doesn't, then there is no reason why the other person should sit there like a good boy scout. Take action, protect yourself.
| Quote: |
| but why did someone with no value to add accept the job anyway, knowing they would screw up ....and get screwed. |
As long as we live in this hierarchy of boss to employee (master/slave), yes the one higher up the chain will have to give the appropriate training or hire more qualified slaves. It's as simple as that.
Your angst should be directed at the hiring process not the underqualified teachers, assuming they are.
Schools pay after 1 month of labor, so I don't see how the school is out if they are small. They can easily get flight money back.
As for rent issues, tough, that is how Korea does things. That responsibility is on the boss, not the teacher or recruiter. |
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