|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
The Sultan of Seoul
Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Location: right... behind.. YOU
|
 Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:35 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| northway wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| redaxe wrote: |
| I don't think the concept of friendship truly exists in Korea, at least not in any form that even remotely resembles the western concept of friendship. |
Friendship in the human context applies to Koreans as well. Just like OTHER HUMAN BEINGS they have friendships too. And yes it resembles the western concept of friendship at base. To list just ONE thing.
Ever notice how many movies and dramas (like Sandglass) revolve around the concept of close friends (who chose different paths in life)?
These wouldn't be so popular if Koreans couldn't relate to the concept of friendship. |
The close friends thing you bring up illustrates a big difference between Koream views of friendship and those in the West. Those films are always about old friends, as that is the standard in Korean culture. Isn't the phrase "you don't make any friends after high school"? The concept of friendship is alive, but the field isn't quite as open as it is in the West. |
It's 'friendship' but just different. That's all really. Both western and Korean friendships at the bare bones are a relationship between two people with certain parameters. Two different cultures, so the relationships are different too.
So NO, friendship as exactly thought of in the west DOESN'T exist here, and there is no reason it should.
Why anyone would be arguing it does or doesn't seems moot.
I prefer the western way myself of course, but ho hum. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
overq64
Joined: 08 Mar 2006
|
| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 8:30 am Post subject: |
|
|
One of the oddest things I found living in Korea was the near impossibility of being friends with a Korean. I gave up in the end and had a pretty lonely time of it.
I couldn't get along with the older/younger senior/junior thing at all. I heard numerous horror stories of 'obligation' incurred when you enter into even the most casual relationship. I have to interract with others as equals and without obligations or 'duty'.
I usually get on well with women my age or slightly older - just as friends. Pretty tricky in Korea given how many grass widows there are.
Not being able to go Dutch [Dutch pay as they say] was also a problem - the Korean usually pays and is offended if you try to pay your share or to pick up the tab.
90% of the EFL teacher's day to day life in Korea is frustrating or negative. It is hard to listen to the 'sales pitch' types who want to show you how wonderful everything is in Korea. Rather than taking you to a nice Korean restaurant and letting it speak for itself, they try to push you into liking it. I enjoy drinking moderately but soju? ugh! Never even tried it.
Often we want to complain about our jobs, crummy appartments, bosses, students, the subway, the noise, the dirt, the spitting etc etc. And Koreans don't want to hear too much like that. Rather than be noncommital and change the subject they try to argue with us and that leads to misunderstandings.
The friends I did make in Korea where people who had been abroad themselves and could see Korea through a foreigners eyes a bit more.
I think to make friends with Koreans you need to interact with them in a bubble totally apart from Korean society. Don't expect to meet their friends or family or to get invited into their homes. They don't do that even with other Koreans. In many ways you will be their escape from their Koreanness and they can be someone to hang out with and break up the loneliness.
But not every Korean wants to waste the time on being friends with a foreigner - someone who will be a dead end in Korean terms and will not be able to repay any of the investment. It's analogous to the surprise some westerners express when Korean women don't want to date casually. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sector7G
Joined: 24 May 2008
|
| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| overq64 wrote: |
I usually get on well with women my age or slightly older - just as friends. Pretty tricky in Korea given how many grass widows there are.
|
Never heard that term before, but it was not hard to guess it's meaning. I had to look it up anyway- the geek in me likes to see how phrases are derived.
I met a lot of grass widows when I taught adult classes at a unigwon. You are right, Korea sure seems to have a lot of them. I bet an entire thread could be devoted to that group.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/grass+widow |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
laynamarya
Joined: 01 Jan 2010
Location: Gwangjin-gu
|
| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Some of the absolute best, most loyal friends I have had are Korean. Generally, they were my language partners at first, and then our meetings morphed into something more social. They've invited me to their homes, gone to concerts with me, helped me when I needed it, and stuck with me for years.
While I think it is possible to get along fine with people of various ages, genders, and societal position, I do think it is a lot easier to become close with people who are on equal footing, simply because they get where you're coming from. So, since I'm female, 30ish, recently married, and interested in books, tea, and other languages, I tend to get along best with folks of the same persuasion. And I'm pretty sure this would hold true no matter what country I was in.
There's a lot to be said for having common circumstances. If I've already formed a bond with someone about Korean husbands, mothers-in-law, and organic vegetables, I am much more likely to listen when they DO disagree with me about something. On the other hand, I would have a much harder time respecting divergent opinions from someone who was ten years older than me, with a totally different lifestyle, simply because I would not be able to relate.
I really do think speaking Korean makes a big difference, too. If I knew I couldn't talk to my friend in a way that truly expressed my views, if I knew I would never be able to introduce them to other friends who only spoke Korean, if I knew I would never be able to take them to a Korean show without the whole thing going over their heads, it would be pretty tough to be friends for a long time. I think it would still be tough for me to be really close with someone who spoke zero English, but having the option of switching back and forth changes the dynamic, equalizes things a little bit. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 3:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Sultan of Seoul wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| redaxe wrote: |
| I don't think the concept of friendship truly exists in Korea, at least not in any form that even remotely resembles the western concept of friendship. |
Friendship in the human context applies to Koreans as well. Just like OTHER HUMAN BEINGS they have friendships too. And yes it resembles the western concept of friendship at base. To list just ONE thing.
Ever notice how many movies and dramas (like Sandglass) revolve around the concept of close friends (who chose different paths in life)?
These wouldn't be so popular if Koreans couldn't relate to the concept of friendship. |
The close friends thing you bring up illustrates a big difference between Koream views of friendship and those in the West. Those films are always about old friends, as that is the standard in Korean culture. Isn't the phrase "you don't make any friends after high school"? The concept of friendship is alive, but the field isn't quite as open as it is in the West. |
It's 'friendship' but just different. That's all really. Both western and Korean friendships at the bare bones are a relationship between two people with certain parameters. Two different cultures, so the relationships are different too.
So NO, friendship as exactly thought of in the west DOESN'T exist here, and there is no reason it should.
. |
"NO"?
I never said it did. I said "And yes it resembles the western concept of friendship at base." Key words here being AT BASE in other words the "bare bones".
Basically you just re-posted what I posted. And BTW the argument is not over whether friendship as exactly thought of in the West does or doesn't exist here.
It is if the concept of friendship exists here at all. My stance on it is that it does and it seems that you agree with it as well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cronolegs
Joined: 01 Feb 2012
|
| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 7:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm new in Korea but
| Quote: |
The friends I did make in Korea where people who had been abroad themselves and could see Korea through a foreigners eyes a bit more.
|
Agreed with this. Ive made a huge effort to make korean friends, this includes using their online dating/ friendship sites.
The only luck I've had has been older people (im 22) they (27-30) with some travelling experience under them.
Korean girls my age behave like a UK 16 year old in terms of morals and understanding of the world. Complete waste of time.
They meet me once, appear to have a great time. They are happy to continue talking on Kakoa but when it comes for another meet they are always busy studying or doing some other family bullshit to meet again.
I don't really get it |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
|
| Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| overq64 wrote: |
Often we want to complain about our jobs, crummy appartments, bosses, students, the subway, the noise, the dirt, the spitting etc etc. And Koreans don't want to hear too much like that. |
Who would?
Two things on that: 1. sometimes they take it personally, as though you are insulting Korea if one thing about it isn't perfect.
2. Most don't complain that much about those factors above anyway, so either they just endure or it they aren't bothered much in the first place. Quality of life takes a major back seat to work life here.
Therefore it probably just sounds like white noise to them. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
happiness
Joined: 04 Sep 2010
|
| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
| motiontodismiss wrote: |
| escarole wrote: |
I've enjoyed reading about the idea of jeong in the past, and how supposedly hard it is to define, and how people who aren't Korean can't possibly get it.
Departing from some vague notion of affection, my current take is ... the willingness to endure suffering with, or because of, another person...
|
I'm Korean and even I think it's a load of crap. A lot of times jeong is used to go out on those horrible drinking outings at work or to force new hires to stay late in the office for no reason. Yeah, whatever. I prefer the cold, jeong-less westerner who knows where the line is and doesn't cross it. |
yup.
Jeong is a Chinese character, therefore, at least 3 other countries have it. I always retort that call for the mystical Jeong as Koreans understand how to act Korean, We North Americans understand each other, etc. The difference, Korean society is so set and defined, it becomes more than understanding each other, it becomes the proverbial Catholic guilt trip.
BTW, Han, I always explain, is one of the results of Korea being controlled for centuries and periods by occupying powers, and by their own Confucianism. They cant react activiely to change the situation without breaking some real or mystical social norm or rule, so thats why the act all emotional. Its a way to react, because they cant change the behavior or expected outcome.
Thats also why I say Koreans are generally emotionally supercharged. Passive. Its made me the opposite, super cool and collected, and I get things done...active. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
double post
Last edited by edwardcatflap on Fri May 04, 2012 4:20 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
|
| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 4:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
2. Most don't complain that much about those factors above anyway, so either they just endure or it they aren't bothered much in the first place. Quality of life takes a major back seat to work life here.
Therefore it probably just sounds like white noise to them. |
That may be true but they're pretty quick to complain about dirt in other places. I was interviewing a Korean woman the other day to test her English level and I asked her about a trip she mentioned taking to New york. I told her to compare New york and Seoul and her reply was 'they are the same'. I said there must be some diferences and all she could come up with was 'the subway in Seoul is much better and cleaner.' 
I've never even been to New York and my Korean is just above beginner level but I think I still could have come up with a better answer than that in a speaking test |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 5:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Mix1 wrote: |
| overq64 wrote: |
Often we want to complain about our jobs, crummy appartments, bosses, students, the subway, the noise, the dirt, the spitting etc etc. And Koreans don't want to hear too much like that. |
Who would?
Two things on that: 1. sometimes they take it personally, as though you are insulting Korea if one thing about it isn't perfect.
2. Most don't complain that much about those factors above anyway, so either they just endure or it they aren't bothered much in the first place. Quality of life takes a major back seat to work life here.
Therefore it probably just sounds like white noise to them. |
Two things here. Koreans don't like it when expats bring up stuff critical of their country because Koreans also know it's bad but cannot do anything about it.
Another thing is that for many critical points, like how their wives can act crazy and such, Koreans just accept certain things as is. They know that Korean bosses are often petty, play politics and the like and just accept it.
I will say, however, that gyopos are among the WORST people I've had the misfortune of dealing with in Korea, and that hasn't changed in the time I've been here. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Sultan of Seoul
Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Location: right... behind.. YOU
|
| Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 6:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
@the urban myth -
By quoting that conversation, I was actually replying to the intitial stament of
| Quote: |
| I don't think the concept of friendship truly exists in Korea, at least not in any form that even remotely resembles the western concept of friendship. |
I was saying the same as you 'there is friendship, it's just different.' |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
|
| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Yaya wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| overq64 wrote: |
Often we want to complain about our jobs, crummy appartments, bosses, students, the subway, the noise, the dirt, the spitting etc etc. And Koreans don't want to hear too much like that. |
Who would?
Two things on that: 1. sometimes they take it personally, as though you are insulting Korea if one thing about it isn't perfect.
2. Most don't complain that much about those factors above anyway, so either they just endure or it they aren't bothered much in the first place. Quality of life takes a major back seat to work life here.
Therefore it probably just sounds like white noise to them. |
Two things here. Koreans don't like it when expats bring up stuff critical of their country because Koreans also know it's bad but cannot do anything about it.
Another thing is that for many critical points, like how their wives can act crazy and such, Koreans just accept certain things as is. They know that Korean bosses are often petty, play politics and the like and just accept it.
I will say, however, that gyopos are among the WORST people I've had the misfortune of dealing with in Korea, and that hasn't changed in the time I've been here. |
How so? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
motiontodismiss
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
|
| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 6:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Yaya"]
| Mix1 wrote: |
Two things here. Koreans don't like it when expats bring up stuff critical of their country because Koreans also know it's bad but cannot do anything about it.
|
Certain things they can't do anything about, but others they CHOOSE not to do anything about. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
|
| Posted: Sat May 05, 2012 6:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="motiontodismiss"]
| Yaya wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
Two things here. Koreans don't like it when expats bring up stuff critical of their country because Koreans also know it's bad but cannot do anything about it.
|
Certain things they can't do anything about, but others they CHOOSE not to do anything about. |
Not that easy to break away from Korea's herd mentality, though I respect those who do. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
