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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
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(1) My literal minded friend, I meant no more speculation about the case. None of this was about the actual case, or about what happened that night. If you believe that the picture was widely available and not one media outlet ran it, than that's silly. That's not speculation. Also, since it was an ABC news exclusive, it means that only ABC news had access to it. Again not speculation. Also, in the ABC story there is this:
"His surprising testimony came the same day that ABC News exclusively obtained a photograph showing the bloodied back of Zimmerman's head, which was apparently taken three minutes after he shot and killed Martin. The photo could give credence to Zimmerman's claim that Martin had bashed his head against the concrete as Zimmerman fought for his life."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5oXDLOP8dR
Which tells us when they exclusively obtained the photo.
(2) As to the character assassination, (not sure what happened to my spell checker on that one), it's obviously not speculation as there is already some efforts being made towards this girl. I never claimed that everyone who testifies was going to go through that, but that by testifying in a high profile case you open yourself up for that. Again this is something that has happened lots of times, so no speculation there.
(3) As to the other tangent about racial justice, I wasn't speculating as I showed a similar case where the black man who killed the white man in self defense was charged, which challenged another posters assertion that that wouldn't happen.
(4) So nice try, but no cigar. Also, you are one of the most literal minded people I've ever killed time talking to. |
(numbers are mine)
1. If it is related to the case then it is about the case. As for being literal-minded I can only respond to what you write as I was not gifted with telepathy. Also if you believe that I "believe the picture was widely available and not one media outlet ran it, [then] that's silly" that is not only silly but also speculation....Oohhh more speculation? When, when when, will it end?
2. No you never said everyone but you did claim "I mean if you testify you are setting [yourself] up for character [assassination ]" You put no qualifiers in so it is generally assumed that you are saying this is what usually happens,
3. As to the other tangent yes you are speculating. You did point out another case...but the facts of the Zimmerman case are different which means that you are speculating that Zimmerman (were he black) would have been charged. Zimmerman is not a "similar case". The circumstances are different. That means speculation.
4. Why did you ignore my point about you speculating about the girl's reason to testify?
Speculation is defined as
| Quote: |
| conjectural consideration of a matter; conjecture or surmise: a report based on speculation rather than facts. |
In other words if is not 100% fact based it (or at least part of it) is based on speculation. None of the quotes I took above were based on clear easily proven facts.l |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
[
(1) My literal minded friend, I meant no more speculation about the case. None of this was about the actual case, or about what happened that night. If you believe that the picture was widely available and not one media outlet ran it, than that's silly. That's not speculation. Also, since it was an ABC news exclusive, it means that only ABC news had access to it. Again not speculation. Also, in the ABC story there is this:
"His surprising testimony came the same day that ABC News exclusively obtained a photograph showing the bloodied back of Zimmerman's head, which was apparently taken three minutes after he shot and killed Martin. The photo could give credence to Zimmerman's claim that Martin had bashed his head against the concrete as Zimmerman fought for his life."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-case-exclusive-photo-shows-bloodied-back/story?id=16177849#.T5oXDLOP8dR
Which tells us when they exclusively obtained the photo.
(2) As to the character assassination, (not sure what happened to my spell checker on that one), it's obviously not speculation as there is already some efforts being made towards this girl. I never claimed that everyone who testifies was going to go through that, but that by testifying in a high profile case you open yourself up for that. Again this is something that has happened lots of times, so no speculation there.
(3) As to the other tangent about racial justice, I wasn't speculating as I showed a similar case where the black man who killed the white man in self defense was charged, which challenged another posters assertion that that wouldn't happen.
(4) So nice try, but no cigar. Also, you are one of the most literal minded people I've ever killed time talking to. |
(numbers are mine)
1. If it is related to the case then it is about the case. As for being literal-minded I can only respond to what you write as I was not gifted with telepathy. Also if you believe that I "believe the picture was widely available and not one media outlet ran it, [then] that's silly" that is not only silly but also speculation....Oohhh more speculation? When, when when, will it end?
2. No you never said everyone but you did claim "I mean if you testify you are setting [yourself] up for character [assassination ]" You put no qualifiers in so it is generally assumed that you mean all or the vast majority of people.
3. As to the other tangent yes you are speculating. You did point out another case...but the facts of the Zimmerman case are different which means that you are speculating that Zimmerman (were he black) would have been charged. Zimmerman is not a "similar case". The circumstances are different. That means speculation.
4. Why did you ignore my point about you speculating about the girl's reason to testify? |
1. No, I mean there is obviously a difference between speculation and reasoning. I hate getting into semantics.
Speculate
talk over conjecturally, or review in an idle or casual way and with an element of doubt or without sufficient reason to reach a conclusion
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/speculate
In this case, so far every time there has been new information it has been reported almost immediately, and the nature of the media is to post whatever big headline they have available. Also with all the bloggers out there interested in defending Zimmerman, if this was out there one of them would have gotten their hands on it and posted it. These are all reasonable things, supported by past events. As I showed you, it was exclusively gained by ABC, and they say when they obtained it. That is not speculation. I know that ABC had an exclusive, maybe you did not, but just because you didn't know something doesn't mean that I was involved in speculation.
2. Well you know what they say about people who assume things. You aren't much for picking up subtext.
3. A poster stated a hypothetical. It is impossible to respond to a hypothetical with pure concrete facts, but rather related information. You can play gotcha if you want, but this is just another case of literal mindedness.
4. Again, why she would want to testify or not doesn't really have much to do with the actual case itself, and nothing to do with what happened that night. In my original post about speculation, that was what I was referring to. It is not speculation to say that she was talking to him when it happened. It is not speculation to say that her twitter is largely irrelevant to her sworn testimony. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
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2. Well you know what they say about people who assume things. You aren't much for picking up subtext.
. |
Actually this is more of an English convention in terms of grammar and writing. Not an assumption on my part. (I could take the low road here and get sarcastic like you did, but I'll be nice...this time.)
http://writingcenter.unc.edu/resources/handouts-demos/citation/qualifiers
| Quote: |
Qualifiers can be your friends
Qualifiers are often necessary, such as when your evidence or your claim is open to doubt. In such cases, using a qualifier allows you to present your findings with what we can call "confident uncertainty," which reflects a need to be cautious and critical about the data you're presenting. Sometimes you may be required to present your ideas before you have had a chance to fully interpret your research findings. At other times, you may want to remind readers of the limitations of your particular research.
Here are some words and phrases that can help you indicate uncertainty:
Appears
Seems
Suggests
Indicates
It's also very important to distinguish between absolute or universal claims (in which you are asserting that something is true always and everywhere) and more particular claims (in which you are asserting something but recognizing that your claim has limits). |
(bolding mine)
So when you assert that people who testify set themselves up for character assassination" that sounds like an absolute claim as no modifiers like "some" or "many" were used. That is when you use qualifiers to demonstrate that whatever claim you make is not universal.
Anyway let's get back to Trayvon Martin.
Pretty much all the new evidence that is coming out is in favor of Zimmerman. Why is it that you apparently (note the qualifier) support Trayvon? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
[
2. Well you know what they say about people who assume things. You aren't much for picking up subtext.
. |
Actually this is more of an English convention in terms of grammar and writing. Not an assumption on my part. (I could take the low road here and get sarcastic like you did, but I'll be nice...this time.)
http://writingcenter.unc.edu/resources/handouts-demos/citation/qualifiers
| Quote: |
Qualifiers can be your friends
Qualifiers are often necessary, such as when your evidence or your claim is open to doubt. In such cases, using a qualifier allows you to present your findings with what we can call "confident uncertainty," which reflects a need to be cautious and critical about the data you're presenting. Sometimes you may be required to present your ideas before you have had a chance to fully interpret your research findings. At other times, you may want to remind readers of the limitations of your particular research.
Here are some words and phrases that can help you indicate uncertainty:
Appears
Seems
Suggests
Indicates
It's also very important to distinguish between absolute or universal claims (in which you are asserting that something is true always and everywhere) and more particular claims (in which you are asserting something but recognizing that your claim has limits). |
(bolding mine)
So when you assert that people who testify set themselves up for character assassination" that sounds like an absolute claim as no modifiers like "some" or "many" were used. That is when you use qualifiers to demonstrate that whatever claim you make is not universal.
Anyway let's get back to Trayvon Martin.
Pretty much all the new evidence that is coming out is in favor of Zimmerman. Why is it that you apparently (note the qualifier) support Trayvon? |
Debating with ESL teachers, what can you do. It would be unreasonable to assume that every person that testifies is going to be subjected to character assassination, but the context of the conversation was that we were discussing high profile cases, therefore that was the subtext of my comment. If I had said what I said without context than the qualifiers would have been necessary. Anyway enough of all of that.
I have said several times that I am not really all that interested in the two individuals in this case, but rather the institutions involved in this case. I believed that it should have been brought to trial due to various pieces of evidence, such as the friend on the phone, witnesses saying they thought it was Trayvon screaming, etc. etc. Now that the case has been brought to trial, I am content to let it play out as long as there isn't any obvious miscarriage of justice. |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
It seems as though the detective in your original link does not believe Zimmerman is innocent.
He claims that Zimmerman contradicted himself in his statements to the police.
After listening to that detective...hmmm...things don't look so good for Zimmerman.
That detective is also very well composed...this is making for some good drama. |
Did you watch the entire exchange? The prosecutor's questions left the impression that Zimmerman's account has already been contradicted. However, when the defense attorney took over, he pressed the detective until he was forced to admit that there actually isn't any evidence that contradicts Zimmerman. Like ontheway said, the best they have so far is one witness that reported shadows moving somewhere quickly, but with no indication of direction or identity. |
ahh...I was referring back to my post just before and getting his name cleared if he was innocent.
There is a big difference between being innocent and not being able to prove he is guilty...especially in this case with the law the way it is.
If he is innocent...and if people get to witness that through this trial..then this trial will be good for him.
If he is not innocent...whether he is proven guilty or not...then he will have a hard time regardless of whether it is spent in or out of prison.
So my post you quoted was just saying that the detective certainly gave the impression that he didn't think Zimmerman was 'innocent'...in fact he tried to give the impression that he had contradicted himself...and thus trying to make him look guilty.
There is a lot to come and probably best to wait and see how it turns out.
Again...the drama factor here is quite intriguing. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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Zackback
Joined: 05 Nov 2010
Location: Kyungbuk
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:42 am Post subject: |
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What usually happens in these kinds of "hearings"?
Thanks |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Zackback wrote: |
What usually happens in these kinds of "hearings"?
Thanks |
Depends. They are not all the same.
Apparently the next one will be on August 8. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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ABC News Exclusive: Zimmerman Medical Report Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations After Trayvon Martin Shooting
ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.
Zimmerman faces a second degree murder charge for the Feb. 26 shooting that left the unarmed 17-year-old high school junior dead. Zimmerman has claimed self defense in what he described as a life and death struggle that Martin initiated by accosting him, punching him in the face, then repeatedly bashing his head into the pavement
http://gma.yahoo.com/abc-news-exclusive-zimmerman-medical-report-shows-broken-204911351--abc-news-topstories.html
The prosecution's case is getting weaker and weaker. If it were not for the media's race baiting, this would not even be going to trial. |
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| The prosecution's case is getting weaker and weaker. |
Maybe not.
| Quote: |
The autopsy report on Trayvon Martin shows he died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from "intermediate range," NBC News is reporting.
NBC, which says it reviewed the report by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., does not define "intermediate range." |
If the report is accurate and if 'intermediate range' ends up meaning farther than close range, then Zimmerman could be in serious trouble. However, those are two very big 'ifs,' especially considering the source. |
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Menino80
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Location: Hodor?
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
ABC News Exclusive: Zimmerman Medical Report Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations After Trayvon Martin Shooting
ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.
Zimmerman faces a second degree murder charge for the Feb. 26 shooting that left the unarmed 17-year-old high school junior dead. Zimmerman has claimed self defense in what he described as a life and death struggle that Martin initiated by accosting him, punching him in the face, then repeatedly bashing his head into the pavement
http://gma.yahoo.com/abc-news-exclusive-zimmerman-medical-report-shows-broken-204911351--abc-news-topstories.html
The prosecution's case is getting weaker and weaker. If it were not for the media's race baiting, this would not even be going to trial. |
So sez Zimmerman's personal doctor? Why would he be the one doing the examinations? If Zimmerman was injured, these reports should be coming from the hospital he was rushed to after displaying such injuries, not his buddy from way back. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| The prosecution's case is getting weaker and weaker. |
Maybe not.
| Quote: |
The autopsy report on Trayvon Martin shows he died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from "intermediate range," NBC News is reporting.
NBC, which says it reviewed the report by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., does not define "intermediate range." |
If the report is accurate and if 'intermediate range' ends up meaning farther than close range, then Zimmerman could be in serious trouble. However, those are two very big 'ifs,' especially considering the source. |
I think most of the commenters in this thread already have their minds made up about what happened, regardless of whatever evidence comes out. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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I don't actually. I may be in the minority though. I think Zimmerman's account seems highly suspicious and were I a juror I would need overwhelming evidence not to convict but I could find him not guilty if there were eye witness accounts that saw it in its entirety.
The injuries to Zimmerman is important but I've seen plenty of guys start fights and get their asses beat. A guy with a gun feels emboldened.
Anyway, I would love to know what 'intermediate' means as well.
For me from the start was that we know for a fact that Zimmerman had the mental/emotional state to follow and confront Martin.
I see no logical reason Martin would arbitrarily attack Zimmerman without provocation. Nothing in his background to suggest that as well. Being black and in a hoodie and suspended for having a bag that smells like it had weed in it was enough for some but not me. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| were I a juror I would need overwhelming evidence not to convict |
Guilty until proven innocent. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Menino80 wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
ABC News Exclusive: Zimmerman Medical Report Shows Broken Nose, Lacerations After Trayvon Martin Shooting
ABC News found that Zimmerman was diagnosed with a "closed fracture" of his nose, a pair of black eyes, two lacerations to the back of his head and a minor back injury the day after he fatally shot Martin during an alleged altercation.
Zimmerman faces a second degree murder charge for the Feb. 26 shooting that left the unarmed 17-year-old high school junior dead. Zimmerman has claimed self defense in what he described as a life and death struggle that Martin initiated by accosting him, punching him in the face, then repeatedly bashing his head into the pavement
http://gma.yahoo.com/abc-news-exclusive-zimmerman-medical-report-shows-broken-204911351--abc-news-topstories.html
The prosecution's case is getting weaker and weaker. If it were not for the media's race baiting, this would not even be going to trial. |
So sez Zimmerman's personal doctor? Why would he be the one doing the examinations? If Zimmerman was injured, these reports should be coming from the hospital he was rushed to after displaying such injuries, not his buddy from way back. |
An eyewitness has said the same thing. From the link above
| Quote: |
| A neighbor told ABC News that the day after the shooting he saw Zimmerman as he spoke to officers outside his home. He too recalled seeing black eyes and significant swelling -- as well as a bandage over his nose. |
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