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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
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 Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
Too many first-hand accounts of foreign teachers ignored at schools, hagwons etc on Teacher's Day by parents because they are the foreigner despite what they did in their free time for the students. At hagwons I've worked at in the past usually my contributing something first like food or drink to the teacher's room went unreciprocated when the Korean teachers bought food and drinks but didn't include me - it also happened to the other foreign teacher. Receptionists given cans of drink or gimbap making sure they give to other Koreans but not the foreigner who bought them some food on their long shift.
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This happened consistently at my last school in Korea, if a foreigner brought in food or drinks, they'd give some to the Korean staff, yet on a weekly (sometimes twice weekly basis), food was ordered for every member of the Korean staff but never for the foreign staff. Kind of odd walking in and seeing the receptionist handing out McDonald's set meals or whatever to the 20+ Korean staff and getting totally ignored.
I've never worked in Japan, but it sounds similar to China in that regard - the Chinese coworkers were incredibly friendly, always sharing food, inviting the foreign staff to eat with them etc.
It's very difficult making Korean friends in Korea, it just seems Koreans are not interested (for the most part) in foreigners, foreign culture, foreign things - which is why Korea is great if you like being alone. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| It's very difficult making Korean friends in Korea, it just seems Koreans are not interested (for the most part) in foreigners, foreign culture, foreign things |
They might prefer their own culture overall (that's pretty normal) but I don't think you can say they're not interested in foreign culture for the most part. Virtually every young Korean person I've met has talked about their dream of travelling round the world and look at how many of them study abroad. Look at how popular US and UK tv series and movies are here and look how they've embraced certain elements of food and drink culture from abroad in the last 10 years. Look at the interest in Baseball and EPL. These are all things Koreans like talking about with foreigners too. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe they just don't like you.
Me and the other NETs find ourselves buried under Dduk, oranges, biscuits, coffee, patpingsoo, pizza, chicken, Chinese food, kiwis, and more... Actually its a bit much sometimes and I wish they'd chill a bit.
Maybe some of the stuff happens to people because they live in a big city. Maybe the NETs before them told the KTeachers "Don't force food down people's throats" and so the Koreans are paranoid about offering food.
I find it funny that one poster here will gripe about being "excluded" from the group, where another poster will go on about how Koreans are all groupy and can't handle people who want to be individuals and left alone...
As far as sharing food and giving, there's the whole obligation dynamic that you have to be aware of as well as other cultural factors. Now if you choose not to really follow those guidleines, don't be shocked that you are left out of the loop.
One thing, if you are being truly generous, people usually appreciate it. However if you are using food and stuff to get attention or are calculating how much you've given vs. received down to the last 10won piece, then people pick up on it and don't show the same care.
I've seen some NETs give their coteachers gifts and the coteacher just stares at it, wondering why in the world they just did that. Then I've seen other NETs give the same coteacher a gift and its all part of their friendship and its a welcome event.
I've witnessed or enjoyed far too many acts of one-way kindness from Koreans to foreigners to agree with that view. I will agree that there ARE a significant number of Koreans who want a "photo op" or a trophy waygook friend and aren't genuine friends. One has to keep on their toes with those kinds floating around.
A good way to see if some Korean friend is a good friend is if you can go out and watch baseball or EPL at the bar and hardly say two words aside from exasperated groans or mild grunts of approval, split the bar tab, then meet the next day or week and do it again, that's a good friend. The kind of friend who you can commentate on a game with monosyllables and be actually communicating in-depth strategy, knowledge of the game, and a familiarity with the player and their skill set. |
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Yaya
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:06 am Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
To add my pence worth to the debate, I have one true Korean friend. He is gay (I am not and I am a bloke) and we get along very well because back home I was also gay-queer friendly. People's sexual preferences don't bother me as long as they respect my boundaries.
Being an outsider in his own society, he is far more sensitive to foreigners than any other Korean I've met. He's given interesting perspectives on Korean society and Koreans too - views that 9 times out of 10 Koreans would never admit. He lived in Japan too (though for a shorter time than me) and agreed that Koreans will never get just why the image of Japanese people is better.
He found more Japanese people willing to put down the heirarchical nonsense and fulfil themselves as people rather than listen to somebody trying to keep them in a certain box because their age/status means they can mind another person's business. That's not a lot of Japanese people but more than in Korean society.
He also agree with my view that whether they realise it or not, Koreans' groupthink leads them to disrespect the lone person. I have noted time and time again in Korea how indifferent and downright callous Koreans can be to the foreigner walking alone - hard stares, no smile back, no offers of any help - whether the person is a male or female. I have heard female friends who lived in places like Jeolla and were walking alone near Korean merrymakers tell me how uncomfortable it was to walk past and be stared at hard, accentuating their lone status. These were Korean families having picnics etc.
I lived a long time in Japan and I heard many tales of females (and sometimes males - I was one of them) walking alone and being asked if they needed a ride on a hot summer's day by a courteous middle aged Japanese woman or men. Or offered drinks suddenly or simply being treated well by not being given the fixed stare. I have been solo in Japan and invited to join groups of Japanese - it has never happened in Korea and my female friends have said the same. My Korean friend says it is to do with utilitarian attitudes - the solo person is seen as not having anything to give so the Korean mentality in this case is they're not going to bother.
However, I have heard Japanese expression compassion for the lone foreigner while in Korea there is usually laughter and downputting comments. I maintain the Japanese are more empathetic and the Koreans more utilitarian - they pride themselves on being 'kind' to foreigners but frankly I've seen little of it especially when I am alone. They are self interested that way - foreigners in a group are seen as offering them a benefit which is why you will hear about Koreans at a beach or place somewhere sharing food with a group of foreigners but the lone foreigner is shunned.
The Japanese have 'giri - a sense of obligation for want of a better word but that translation doesn't express what giri really is. It can be very classy and considerate - Koreans (not my friend) love to tell me how 'two faced' Japanese are but give me their repaying favours anyday contrasted with the generosity of foreigners in Korean public schools taking their students out and being completely ignored by the parents etc.
Too many first-hand accounts of foreign teachers ignored at schools, hagwons etc on Teacher's Day by parents because they are the foreigner despite what they did in their free time for the students. At hagwons I've worked at in the past usually my contributing something first like food or drink to the teacher's room went unreciprocated when the Korean teachers bought food and drinks but didn't include me - it also happened to the other foreign teacher. Receptionists given cans of drink or gimbap making sure they give to other Koreans but not the foreigner who bought them some food on their long shift.
I have never experienced that in Japan. In Japan it's a very heartwarming experience to one day have your student's parent turn up at the school and invite you to a day trip in the mountains on Sunday because you have 'taken care' of their son or daughter.
These experiences were usual - from large kindnesses to being given food or a small gift for your care and generosity. I and foreigners I know have never been acknowledged by K parents or co workers in any way like that. The Japanese know how to make people feel comfortable and that includes foreigners when the foreigner is teaching them or their children, lives near them, or even as a stranger is walking past them enjoying their free time. It doesn't always happen but it happens a lot. |
Glad to know you had a good experience in Japan but there are posters who say they did Japan and ended up returning to Korea because the Japanese seem no less xenophobic than Koreans, they just hide it better.
I've also heard more than a few non-Korean people say the Japanese are polite but not necessarily warm and friendly, that it can be quite a lonely existence in Japan. Add the decline of the ESL industry in Japan and lower demand in Japan for ESL and... |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| A good way to see if some Korean friend is a good friend is if you can go out and watch baseball or EPL at the bar and hardly say two words aside from exasperated groans or mild grunts of approval, split the bar tab, then meet the next day or week and do it again, that's a good friend. The kind of friend who you can commentate on a game with monosyllables and be actually communicating in-depth strategy, knowledge of the game, and a familiarity with the player and their skill set. |
Not talking but grunting? So you're implying that Korean men are cavemen? Who in their right mind likes sitting around groaning and grunting with their friends? I assume that most of us here have triple-digit IQs, which would mean we like talking to our friends when we see them, I know I do. |
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rabidcake
Joined: 10 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| metalhead wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| A good way to see if some Korean friend is a good friend is if you can go out and watch baseball or EPL at the bar and hardly say two words aside from exasperated groans or mild grunts of approval, split the bar tab, then meet the next day or week and do it again, that's a good friend. The kind of friend who you can commentate on a game with monosyllables and be actually communicating in-depth strategy, knowledge of the game, and a familiarity with the player and their skill set. |
I assume that most of us here have triple-digit IQs |
That's quite a big assumption. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| metalhead wrote: |
ot talking but grunting? So you're implying that Korean men are cavemen? Who in their right mind likes sitting around groaning and grunting with their friends? I assume that most of us here have triple-digit IQs, which would mean we like talking to our friends when we see them, I know I do. |
Give it a rest. Whatever noises Steelrails makes with Korean men is his own business. The point is that he knows real friends from false. |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:15 am Post subject: |
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| The Sultan of Seoul wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
Maybe you guys should leave Korea then if you can't enjoy what it has to offer and can't understand any culture outside of your own.
You don't sound like very happy people. |
Jeeze, we get it already. |
Along with 12ax, alphonso jnr, this guy is from sentry, I'm almost positive. Everyone of their posts folow the same schema - west is evil and anti intellectual etc..
Love the way he posits that his Korean friends are 'loyal and sincere etc' suggestive that his non Korean friends are the anti-thesis to those qualities.
I have found that either group can have both the good and / or bad qualities, neither has a monopoly. |
"From sentry?" You mean that website where a handful of Korean Americans teenagers (you can count the number of commentors on one hand) go to rant about everything that isn't Korean thinking it's a productive way of asserting their ethnic identity? Don't be ridiculous.
Last edited by 12ax7 on Wed May 09, 2012 7:37 am; edited 1 time in total |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| The Sultan of Seoul wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
Maybe you guys should leave Korea then if you can't enjoy what it has to offer and can't understand any culture outside of your own.
You don't sound like very happy people. |
Jeeze, we get it already. |
Along with 12ax, alphonso jnr, this guy is from sentry, I'm almost positive. Everyone of their posts folow the same schema - west is evil and anti intellectual etc..
Love the way he posits that his Korean friends are 'loyal and sincere etc' suggestive that his non Korean friends are the anti-thesis to those qualities.
I have found that either group can have both the good and / or bad qualities, neither has a monopoly. |
Don't worry, K Sentry trolls are too stupid to last too long in places like this. They get banned sooner rather than later. |
Check the date on the left, below my nick...Yeah, I'm a "Sentry troll" whose days are numbered. 
Pardon me if I'm crass or patronizing, but some of you guys were still wetting your beds when I moved to Korea. Yes, my words are not those of a troll; they are the words of experience and wisdom...I won't allow myself to be affected by mildly unpleasant experiences, nor will I allow them to shape my attitudes towards Koreans in general. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
To add my pence worth to the debate, I have one true Korean friend. He is gay (I am not and I am a bloke) and we get along very well because back home I was also gay-queer friendly. People's sexual preferences don't bother me as long as they respect my boundaries.
(1) Being an outsider in his own society, he is far more sensitive to foreigners than any other Korean I've met. He's given interesting perspectives on Korean society and Koreans too - views that 9 times out of 10 Koreans would never admit. He lived in Japan too (though for a shorter time than me) and agreed that Koreans will never get just why the image of Japanese people is better.
(2) He found more Japanese people willing to put down the heirarchical nonsense and fulfil themselves as people rather than listen to somebody trying to keep them in a certain box because their age/status means they can mind another person's business. That's not a lot of Japanese people but more than in Korean society.
(3) He also agree with my view that whether they realise it or not, Koreans' groupthink leads them to disrespect the lone person. I have noted time and time again in Korea how indifferent and downright callous Koreans can be to the foreigner walking alone - hard stares, no smile back, no offers of any help - whether the person is a male or female. I have heard female friends who lived in places like Jeolla and were walking alone near Korean merrymakers tell me how uncomfortable it was to walk past and be stared at hard, accentuating their lone status. These were Korean families having picnics etc.
(4) I lived a long time in Japan and I heard many tales of females (and sometimes males - I was one of them) walking alone and being asked if they needed a ride on a hot summer's day by a courteous middle aged Japanese woman or men. Or offered drinks suddenly or simply being treated well by not being given the fixed stare. I have been solo in Japan and invited to join groups of Japanese - it has never happened in Korea and my female friends have said the same. My Korean friend says it is to do with utilitarian attitudes - the solo person is seen as not having anything to give so the Korean mentality in this case is they're not going to bother.
(5) However, I have heard Japanese expression compassion for the lone foreigner while in Korea there is usually laughter and downputting comments. I maintain the Japanese are more empathetic and the Koreans more utilitarian - they pride themselves on being 'kind' to foreigners but frankly I've seen little of it especially when I am alone. They are self interested that way - foreigners in a group are seen as offering them a benefit which is why you will hear about Koreans at a beach or place somewhere sharing food with a group of foreigners but the lone foreigner is shunned.
The Japanese have 'giri - a sense of obligation for want of a better word but that translation doesn't express what giri really is. It can be very classy and considerate - Koreans (not my friend) love to tell me how 'two faced' Japanese are but give me their repaying favours anyday contrasted with the generosity of foreigners in Korean public schools taking their students out and being completely ignored by the parents etc.
(6) Too many first-hand accounts of foreign teachers ignored at schools, hagwons etc on Teacher's Day by parents because they are the foreigner despite what they did in their free time for the students. At hagwons I've worked at in the past usually my contributing something first like food or drink to the teacher's room went unreciprocated when the Korean teachers bought food and drinks but didn't include me - it also happened to the other foreign teacher. Receptionists given cans of drink or gimbap making sure they give to other Koreans but not the foreigner who bought them some food on their long shift.
I have never experienced that in Japan. In Japan it's a very heartwarming experience to one day have your student's parent turn up at the school and invite you to a day trip in the mountains on Sunday because you have 'taken care' of their son or daughter.
(7) These experiences were usual - from large kindnesses to being given food or a small gift for your care and generosity. I and foreigners I know have never been acknowledged by K parents or co workers in any way like that. The Japanese know how to make people feel comfortable and that includes foreigners when the foreigner is teaching them or their children, lives near them, or even as a stranger is walking past them enjoying their free time. It doesn't always happen but it happens a lot. |
( I numbered a few of your paragraphs for easier reference.)
1. Just to point out that ONE Korean hardly reflects Korea or for that matter is correct or knows what he is talking about. Being an "outsider" of course he is going to have a more critical view of Korea...doesn't mean it is correct.
2. Well the population of Japan is a lot higher than in Korea...about 2.5 times so yes there are probably a lot more Japanese willing to step outside the "heirarchical nonsense"
3. I've been invited to picnic with complete strangers (Korean). True it happened only twice...but it does happen. But it's hardly strange. Most people whether Japanese, Korean or Westerner are not going to invite a stranger to come and eat with their family/friends. Let's say you were back home having a picnic in the park with your friends...how many random strangers are YOU going to invite? Yeah....
4. I've lost count of the rides and food I've been offered by strangers. Heck just the other day some adjumas sitting in the parking lot gave me some of those vegetarian pancakes. That's been a semi-regular occurrence in most places I've been. Other NETS I know have had the same experiences.
5. Never heard laughter or down-putting comments about me when I am alone...and I will bet dollars to doughnuts my understanding of spoken Korean is (at the barest possible minimum) equal to yours. (unless you are an ethnic Korean).
6. At both hakwons and public schools I've been swamped with offers of food..."here have some cake". "have some bread" "have some rice pudding" "have some tea" "have some coffee". Often they don't even ask but leave some food on a plate by my desk. Frankly I don't even LIKE half the stuff (although I do generally take some to be polite).
At this current public school for my last birthday I had two separate classes buy me birthday cakes. Somehow they found out it was my birthday(?) and then they sprung a surprise birthday party for me.
7. I posted this story before but it works here too. I had this rude student in class kicked out. The next day the mother came and left a box of oranges as an apology.
I don't know what to say...maybe it's just you and your friends. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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| metalhead wrote: |
Not talking but grunting? So you're implying that Korean men are cavemen? Who in their right mind likes sitting around groaning and grunting with their friends? I assume that most of us here have triple-digit IQs, which would mean we like talking to our friends when we see them, I know I do. |
It's men watching sports. I don't want to hear someone yap on and on, that's only for big plays or controversial decisions. I also don't want to watch the game with someone who is overly emotional or exaggerates things. It's baseball. You ever watch managers in the dugout? All they do is sit there and express occasional grunts and have the same glare throughout the game.
What am I going to talk to some dude about how he's feeling and what's been on his mind lately and share your feelings on your significant other? No, we're watching sports. We're men. In between innings you can yap a bit about strategy or players, but game comes on you need to be able to shut up.
And as far as IQs, to be able to discern meaning and intent without taking 5 minutes of yapping to express and decipher it is indicative of good intelligence. |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Friendships with Koreans.. |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
Who are you guys hanging out with? I've been all over the planet too. I find Korean dudes a blast; drink some whiskey, get some chicks |
This!
Korean duded are for the most part cock-blockers. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| metalhead wrote: |
Not talking but grunting? So you're implying that Korean men are cavemen? Who in their right mind likes sitting around groaning and grunting with their friends? I assume that most of us here have triple-digit IQs, which would mean we like talking to our friends when we see them, I know I do. |
It's men watching sports. I don't want to hear someone yap on and on, that's only for big plays or controversial decisions. I also don't want to watch the game with someone who is overly emotional or exaggerates things. It's baseball. You ever watch managers in the dugout? All they do is sit there and express occasional grunts and have the same glare throughout the game.
What am I going to talk to some dude about how he's feeling and what's been on his mind lately and share your feelings on your significant other? No, we're watching sports. We're men. In between innings you can yap a bit about strategy or players, but game comes on you need to be able to shut up.
And as far as IQs, to be able to discern meaning and intent without taking 5 minutes of yapping to express and decipher it is indicative of good intelligence. |
So why the f#$k are your posts all novella length? |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:10 am Post subject: Re: Friendships with Koreans.. |
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| everything-is-everything wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
Who are you guys hanging out with? I've been all over the planet too. I find Korean dudes a blast; drink some whiskey, get some chicks |
This!
Korean duded are for the most part cock-blockers. |
It's not the experience I had when I was single. Hangout with Koreans a bit more, get to become friends with a few. I guarantee they'll try to hook you up. |
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joelove
Joined: 12 May 2011
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:15 am Post subject: |
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Here is a nice song by Bobby Dylan:
Oh the gentlemen are talking
and the midnight moon is on the riverside
They're drinking up and walking
and it is time for me to slide
I live in another world,
where life and death are memorized
Where the earth is strung with lovers pearls
and all I see are a dark eyes
A cock is crowing far away
and another soldier's deep in prayer
Some mothers child has gone astray,
and she can't find him anywhere
But I can hear another drum
beating for the dead that rise
Whom nature's beast fears as they come
and all I see are a dark eyes
They tell me to be discreet
for all intended purposes
They tell me revenge is sweet
and from where they stand I'm sure it is
But I feel nothing for their game
where beauty goes unrecognized
And all I feel is heat and flame
and all I see are a dark eyes
Oh the French girl shes in paradise
and a drunken man is at the wheel
Hunger pays a heavy price
to the falling Gods of speed and steel
Oh time is short and the days are sweet
And passion rules the arrow that flies
A million faces at my feet,
but all I see are are dark eyes |
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