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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| K1020 wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| K1020 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| but one's excessive devotion to refusing to use CP is just as weak and timid as the bullying CP is. |
Are you actually saying an adult who chooses not hit children (using other means to moderate behavior) is as weak and timid as an adult who violently bullies children? |
I'm saying that someone who refuses to do so because it makes them squeamish is. Never rule anything out. Sticking to some philosophy out of stubbornness won't get things solved, one way or the other. |
1. Who said they don't hit kids because it makes them feel icky? -And how does "excessive devotion" to not beating a child translate to squeamishness anyway?
Not to mention the possibility that they have a more productive and healthy way to deal with behavior issues.
Yeah your right Gahandi was so stupid. All he managed to do was liberate India from the English what a moron!
I could name tons of people whose stubborn resolve has changed to world for better or for worse. Exactly how else do social ills get solved?
Again presupposing there is a problem but as many have pointed out the scholarship shows a decline in violent crime not an increase. |
So what is your specific example of a "more productive and healthy" way to ensure discipline? And not some vagueries like "clearly outlined consequences", I mean real specifics.
There is a difference between stubbornness and determination. Stubbornness tries to hammer a square peg into a round hole. Determination goes through 30 different shaped and sized pegs before they find the right one.
Corporal punishment is not always the right answer. Not using the CP is not always the right answer. The right answer is the right peg for the right hole. Sometimes that peg happens to be a student who doesn't care if you use any of the other pegs on them and the only peg that works is CP.
But refusing to use that peg because it makes you squeamish or stubborn pride refuses to allow you to admit that some people are CP-shaped holes? That's just a bad choice and that's my point. |
What about statistics and case studies that show that overall CP is harmful to students, and academic success. Sure, it may be that a small number might benefit, it's practically impossible to prove if that is or isn't the case, but if we know that it is in most cases harmful for most students, than isn't it best to ban it, because clearly the teachers can not know which student is which, and perhaps wouldn't really care if they personally found the student annoying or whatever. I think that there is much more harm in trying to fit the "pegs" that don't fit into the "CP hole", than the other way around, not to mention there is quantifiable evidence that almost all students aren't "CP Pegs" as you put it. |
Right, so again, what methods are better? And something beyond vagueries such as "Studies show CP is not effective" (which I agree with if its applied haphazardly and absent of positive examples)- I mean concrete strategies.
Not only that, I'd submit that while CP is ineffective in certain behaviors, it is more effective if the behavior is more offensive or extreme.
CP doesn't work if the kid refuses to pick up their room because it doesn't match the offense. However CP in response to swearing at mom tends to be effective (especially if its never used in normal discipline) because it reinforces the gravity and offensiveness of the act.
Conversely, what do you think goes through someone's head if they disrespect mom or steal something personal and all that happens is a "time out"? What lesson is learned there? Sad to say, but some kids interpret that as "You are a bunch of sissies". |
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The Cosmic Hum
Joined: 09 May 2003
Location: Sonic Space
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Sad to say, but some kids interpret that as "You are a bunch of sissies". |
Yeah...but perhaps it would be better to be incorrectly labeled as 'a sissy', than to be correctly labeled as a 'sadistic and abusive parent.' |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 8:32 am Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
| Julius wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
Teachers shouldn't be hitting children. |
You're right.
That should be the headmasters job.
And not hitting with fists, slaps or anything ridiculous-as has been the case in korea.
A cane. To the backside.
Quick, physically harmless and saves years of ill behaviour. Probably saves some kids from being career criminals. Saves their lives.
Physical force is the foundation of authority.
If the police were ultimately unable to handcuff, beat, shoot or arrest wrongdoers then we would live in a miserable, non-viable society. Hold on, thats exactly what people like you are trying to create by mollycoddling kids into being antisocial violent criminals. |
And yet practically all the quantifiable research says your wrong. In fact much of the available research indicates that it increases anti-social behavior and aggression. This report complies a lot of the research, in case you are interested in using facts in stead of just what you think.
http://www.childrensmn.org/web/healthprof/032625.pdf |
Must be the wrong research. Decades ago when discipline was strict, crime was low. Nowadays, it isn't. Seems like your research is fudged and not credible. Any idiot can argue numbers 6 ways to Sunday. It's what actually happens that results. If I ever go home, I'd like to put a boot up every Politically Correct facists you know what! Thanks for nothing. Besides, didn't Dr Spock's kid commit suicide. (He put out that famous book that said it was ok to not discipline your kids.) |
The hakwon system is remarkably similar to the dysfunctional modern western educational system.
The kids are never disciplined, the management kowtows to the parents, the students are viewed as entitled customers, and the teachers do little more than absorb all kinds of teenage angst and rebellion.
Teachers used to simply focus on being educators.
Now they are expected to be counsellors, bouncers, entertainers, psychologists, therapists and basically raise the kids to adulthood. All because of that humanistic philosophy that infected idealogues and planners in the 60's.
What is missing is a solid, enforcible structure that provides security to both teachers and children. Instead we are left playing mind games in a chaotic environment while walking a tightrope between the ever more unrealistic demands of all parties. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:38 am Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Sad to say, but some kids interpret that as "You are a bunch of sissies". |
Yeah...but perhaps it would be better to be incorrectly labeled as 'a sissy', than to be correctly labeled as a 'sadistic and abusive parent.' |
No, I don't think so.
It's not right to just leave kids grow up with no sense of consequences.
CP done correctly is not abusive or sadistic. The problem is that everyone would have their own idea of what "correctly" would mean.
What is abusive is allowing children to just do whatever they want and feel
that they have no consequences for their actions. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| The Cosmic Hum wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Sad to say, but some kids interpret that as "You are a bunch of sissies". |
Yeah...but perhaps it would be better to be incorrectly labeled as 'a sissy', than to be correctly labeled as a 'sadistic and abusive parent.' |
Well, if the kid incorrectly labels you as a sissy, then they may start acting up and distracting other students. I mean, again, what are you going to do? Time out? Lecture them? Detention? Extra Homework that they won't do? Suspend them? Expel them?
Next thing you know he has have 4 other kids acting up with him because they see that nothing happens and then they get 10 other kids to participate in a fringe manner and all the while the good students are distracted and the teacher spends 10 minutes a day yelling at kids and lecturing them and going over disciplinary procedures.
I agree that it is cruel to deny students a proper learning environment and the full amount of class time simply because of a philosophical objection to CP and a squeamishness to carry it out.
CP is not always the most effective or appropriate use of discipline, but it does have a time and place I think. |
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K1020
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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I said before that violence as a means to rearing children is the mark of a ill prepared caregiver but that in no way makes non-violence the mark of an exemplary caregiver. The discussion has turned to the topic, how can we respond to behavior issues with apt measures. As most are saying a response that fits the offence is the goal.
The trouble is that takes a lot of consideration and is more effort than many parents or teachers are willing to put in. Laxness on small behavior issues breeds larger ones as kids continue to test their boundaries. In my classroom I enforce on small behavior issues fastidiously and so students have little chance to escalate into out and out mayhem.These small behavior issues are, I hope, ones that, even someone who would consider CP, would not administer it for. Because they know I will follow through with consequences they don't push it or think of me as "a sissy". But their is no concrete plan, I have tactics and lots of ways to maintain order but if I think a student will not respond to one method I try a different one; different means, same ends.
For those of you now saying that corporal punishment should be an infrequent measured response (a far cry from 3 pages ago) your evaluation process is the same. It's just, given all the work that debases CP as a positive thing for children and the risks to create an antagonistic relationship instead of a partnership with a student runs counter to my role as a teacher. Plus the risk do major psychological harm to a child, not to mention the tendency for those children to repeat abuse -as seen in former students of residential schools or even catholic schools as mentioned above where CP was righteously administered, it doesn't seem worth the trouble it causes.
I would bet that there is a study out there that says most people in prison were raised with violence and corporal punishment, in fact I know there are a number. I'd be interested to see the study that refuted that assertion. |
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Lolimahro
Joined: 19 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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This was an issue at my school last week. A boy was disciplined for hitting another kid he claims is his best friend. The punishment was for him to write an apology letter to the friend. The letter was all fine and good until the last line, which read: "You shouldn't make me angry again."
Foreign teacher X asked Korean staff member Y about it. Y told X, "just hit him, or bring him to me and I will hit him. I know his father; he will understand if I hit him." He was laughing like it was a big joke. "It's Korean culture," he said, "and so the kids respond better to it."
He completely missed that the hitting wasn't the problem, it's the fact that the child has a HUGE disparity of common sense regarding Cause and Effect of his behavior. So, let's hit him and watch him be even MORE pissed off at his friend for "making him angry" so that not only did he hit his friend, but he got caught and beaten for it. That's going to solve everything.
After like 10 minutes of explaining (and agreeing with foreign teacher X) that this situation requires a parent-teacher conference and possibly serious disciplinary action (suspension?), staff member Y just couldn't get it or didn't agree. I still am scratching my head about that.  |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Lolimahro"]This was an issue at my school last week. A boy was disciplined for hitting another kid he claims is his best friend. The punishment was for him to write an apology letter to the friend. The letter was all fine and good until the last line, which read: "You shouldn't make me angry again."
Foreign teacher X asked Korean staff member Y about it. Y told X, "just hit him, or bring him to me and I will hit him. I know his father; he will understand if I hit him." He was laughing like it was a big joke. "It's Korean culture," he said, "and so the kids respond better to it."
He completely missed that the hitting wasn't the problem, it's the fact that the child has a HUGE disparity of common sense regarding Cause and Effect of his behavior. So, let's hit him and watch him be even MORE pissed off at his friend for "making him angry" so that not only did he hit his friend, but he got caught and beaten for it. That's going to solve everything.
[/quote]
Actually it probably would solve it. Cause: hit a kid. Effect: get hit harder by someone bigger. Pretty simple deterrent really. No complex psychology needed.
Is it the only way? No... but it's not as bad as you're making it out to be.
And the Korean teacher is correct: the kids will respond better to a Korean doing the punishment. Consider yourself lucky he's trying to help. He's probably scratching his head about you too.
Although he's wrong about one thing: it USED to be Korean culture. Now, mostly all they do is baby the kids for the most part and let them do almost anything they want.
And we can see the results, all in less than 5 years or so...
But it's not JUST lack of CP that led to the change. A lot more households are now double income, meaning parents aren't around or energized enough to do the real parenting. So the burden falls to educators and hagwon babysitters, who suddenly find themselves in an environment where they have to cater to the kids and can't really punish them in most cases. So it's a double whammy really. |
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seoultee
Joined: 11 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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| I think there were more murders in Miami, FL last week than in all of Korea for the last 2 decades. |
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The Sultan of Seoul
Joined: 17 Apr 2012
Location: right... behind.. YOU
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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| seoultee wrote: |
| I think there were more murders in Miami, FL last week than in all of Korea for the last 2 decades. |
1. That may be so, but please provide links.
2. Then are you saying that's because CP in Korea is effective or are you arguing against it?
My stance is that it is needed in small doses to instill a healthy sense of fear in kids, but not so often or for small infractions that it is the only discipline a child recieves. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 1:09 am Post subject: |
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| If you count vehicular manslaughter via reckless or drunken driving and murder-suicide pacts I'm pretty sure S.Korea can give the USofA a run for its money on the murder rate. |
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Lolimahro
Joined: 19 May 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
Actually it probably would solve it. Cause: hit a kid. Effect: get hit harder by someone bigger. Pretty simple deterrent really. No complex psychology needed.
Is it the only way? No... but it's not as bad as you're making it out to be.
And the Korean teacher is correct: the kids will respond better to a Korean doing the punishment. Consider yourself lucky he's trying to help. He's probably scratching his head about you too.
Although he's wrong about one thing: it USED to be Korean culture. Now, mostly all they do is baby the kids for the most part and let them do almost anything they want. |
I guess I should clarify a few things. First, this particular incident was one in a very common pattern of behavior for this individual child, which has been continuing over the last 2 years, even though corporal punishment has been used on him repeatedly.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not the kind of person who thinks that CP is evil or anything like that. I just think it can't be the only thing in the arsenal of discipline a school can use, and it shouldn't be the most severe form of discipline. Because, whether it's legal or not, there will always be special students for whom it just does not work (including this kid). There also need to be more long-term disciplinary solutions for students who exhibit particularly violent or threatening behavior, and frankly I think removing them from a normal school environment and putting them somewhere where there are special staff to deal with their issues is more appropriate than just shrugging and saying 'what can we do?'
Perhaps it upset me more than it needed to be, but it just seemed like the teacher's serious concern for a student was just laughed away. I like this particular staff member (I like all our staff members, really) but it bugged me that, instead of offering to call the parents in for a conference or something like that, he just decided to make jokes about it. Maybe he was just trying to be helpful and lighten the mood.
I do agree that discipline needs to be backed up in the home very carefully. In fact, I have a lot of issues with my own son's behavior because he gets away with things at school and in public that my husband and I just do not allow (refusing to greet elders, begging people for snacks or toys, whining, and not asking politely for things - the latter of which is probably a language issue more than a discipline issue, though). What can I do? Sometimes I feel at odds with the world when it comes to raising my son. |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:15 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Lolimahro"]...
I do agree that discipline needs to be backed up in the home very carefully. In fact, I have a lot of issues with my own son's behavior because he gets away with things at school and in public that my husband and I just do not allow (refusing to greet elders, begging people for snacks or toys, whining, and not asking politely for things - the latter of which is probably a language issue more than a discipline issue, though). What can I do? Sometimes I feel at odds with the world when it comes to raising my son. [/quote]
Yeah, sounds hard. Especially when overall standards and manners have slipped so far. Soon, raising a kid to even have manners will seem antiquated and old fashioned. It almost already is. But your efforts will be appreciated by many. Keep fighting the good fight. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:24 am Post subject: |
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Problem is though...you're dealing with Korean culture here. I was in a situation similar to yours a few years back...I wanted a parent-teacher conference about a problem student...but the Korean teachers wanted no part of this.
Finally my co-teacher took me aside and explained that they couldn't have a parent-teacher conference as it would result in "much shame" for both sides...in other words a massive loss of face. The school would lose face for not being able to handle the student and the parent(s) would lose face because this was their child.
Generally I don't have much of a problem with the concept of "face" here...but this was one time which had me scratching my head.
When I asked "what do we do then?" she replied that in a couple of years that student would graduate and be someone else's problem.
Yeah just pass the buck...that's gonna "work" only so long and then what? |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Right, so again, what methods are better? And something beyond vagueries such as "Studies show CP is not effective" (which I agree with if its applied haphazardly and absent of positive examples)- I mean concrete strategies. |
A lot depends on the cohesive support of the whole system and society- parents, the community and educators together, of one mind.
I was partly educated at a CP school which had an outstanding academic and sports record. The headmaster dealt the cane with the given permission of the parents concerned. But the parents always gave their permission because they knew what kind of school it was, and they already agreed with it.
It was a supremely efficient school by the way. It was almost unheard of for students to answer back teachers. |
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