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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:12 am Post subject: |
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Maybe not.
"ABC News has uncovered questionable police conduct in the investigation of the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white neighborhood watch captain in Florida, including the alleged "correction" of at least one eyewitness' account"
"Another officer corrected a witness after she told him that she heard the teen cry for help.
The officer told the witness, a long-time teacher, it was Zimmerman who cried for help, said the witness. ABC News has spoken to the teacher and she confirmed that the officer corrected her when she said she heard the teenager shout for help."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/neighborhood-watch-shooting-trayvon-martin-probe-reveals-questionable/story?id=15907136#.T73sLtxdIdQ
"However, witness Mary Cutcher said she knew the truth. Cutcher said police only took a two or three sentence statement from her, but it took about 30 minutes to tell WFTV the story.
"The cries stopped as soon as the gun went off, so I know it was the little boy," Cutcher said.
Cutcher said a cry for help got her attention on the day Trayvon Martin was shot and killed in her backyard by Zimmerman, who was a neighborhood vigilante.
Cutcher said that until now, she ignored repeated attempts by national and local media to share what she saw, partially out of fear.
"We said, 'Is everything OK? And he just looked at us. Selma [another witness] asked him again, 'What's up, what's going on, everything OK? And he just said, 'Call the police,' kind of nonchalantly, kind of like, 'Leave me alone,' '' Cutcher said.
According to a partial police report, Cutcher is one of six witnesses that Sanford police took a statement from.
Cutcher said it was short, and police never questioned her in detail until after she repeatedly reached out to them.
"Blew us off, and I called him back again and I said, "I know this was not self-defense. There was no punching, no hitting going on at the time, no wrestling,'" Cutcher said.
Cutcher said she believes whatever confrontation there was, it ended before they got to her backyard.
She also said she believes Zimmerman continued to chase Martin as he tried to get home.
Police said Zimmerman had a "bloody nose and blood on the back of his head," and he told police, "He was yelling for someone to help, but no one would."
Cutcher said even if Martin got the best of Zimmerman, it's no excuse to kill an unarmed teenager who is half his size."
http://www.wftv.com/news/news/witness-sanford-police-blew-us-teen-slaying/nLSqk/
I wouldn't put much faith in anything the Stanford Police Department was involved in. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:06 am Post subject: |
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I'd put even less faith in what Cutcher says.
Obviously she's completely clueless or incredibly biased. Let's look at a few of her statements
| Quote: |
| The cries stopped as soon as the gun went off, so I know it was the little boy," Cutcher said |
At 17 years of age 150 lbs and 6'3" Trayvon was not a little boy...in fact he was nearly half a foot taller than Zimmerman.
So we can disregard this statement.
| Quote: |
| Cutcher said a cry for help got her attention on the day Trayvon Martin was shot and killed in her backyard by Zimmerman, who was a neighborhood vigilante. |
Nope again this is wrong (either her or the news article). He was asked to be the captain of the neighborhood watch by the appropriate authorities. So a outright misrepresentation or lie here.
| Quote: |
Cutcher said she believes whatever confrontation there was, it ended before they got to her backyard.
She also said she believes Zimmerman continued to chase Martin as he tried to get home |
Well lady you can believe what you like but Zimmerman's injuries seem to conflict with your first belief and you have no basis for the second (or the first if it comes to that). Good thing for Zimmerman he's being tried by the FACTS in a court of law and not personal beliefs.
| Quote: |
| Cutcher said even if Martin got the best of Zimmerman, it's no excuse to kill an unarmed teenager who is half his size |
And here we have it. Even if Martin was on top of Zimmerman smashing his head into the sidewalk it's still no excuse? Blatent bias here. And as already pointed out above the 2 men were very nearly of the same size. Martin was taller (by quite a bit) and only 20 lbs or so lighter.
Yeah I can see why the officer disregarded what she had to say. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
I'd put even less faith in what Cutcher says.
Obviously she's completely clueless or incredibly biased. Let's look at a few of her statements
| Quote: |
| The cries stopped as soon as the gun went off, so I know it was the little boy," Cutcher said |
At 17 years of age 150 lbs and 6'3" Trayvon was not a little boy...in fact he was nearly half a foot taller than Zimmerman.
So we can disregard this statement.
| Quote: |
| Cutcher said a cry for help got her attention on the day Trayvon Martin was shot and killed in her backyard by Zimmerman, who was a neighborhood vigilante. |
Nope again this is wrong (either her or the news article). He was asked to be the captain of the neighborhood watch by the appropriate authorities. So a outright misrepresentation or lie here.
| Quote: |
Cutcher said she believes whatever confrontation there was, it ended before they got to her backyard.
She also said she believes Zimmerman continued to chase Martin as he tried to get home |
Well lady you can believe what you like but Zimmerman's injuries seem to conflict with your first belief and you have no basis for the second (or the first if it comes to that). Good thing for Zimmerman he's being tried by the FACTS in a court of law and not personal beliefs.
| Quote: |
| Cutcher said even if Martin got the best of Zimmerman, it's no excuse to kill an unarmed teenager who is half his size |
And here we have it. Even if Martin was on top of Zimmerman smashing his head into the sidewalk it's still no excuse? Blatent bias here. And as already pointed out above the 2 men were very nearly of the same size. Martin was taller (by quite a bit) and only 20 lbs or so lighter.
Yeah I can see why the officer disregarded what she had to say. |
Glad you're not a police officer. What are the appropriate authorities that asked him to be a neighborhood watch leader? The group wasn't affiliated with the national neighborhood watch program, and the Sanford police department that helped set it up discouraged carrying a fire arm while participating in the watch. Also if, as several eye witness claim, he was chasing after Trayvon, it would indeed seem that he was acting as a vigilante.
As to some other things, Trayvon was a little boy in terms of age compared to Zimmerman, that might have been what she meant, we can't presume to know what others are thinking. I mean that's a pretty common usage of the term, at least in the south.
Of course she would know if Zimmerman was chasing Martin or not, if she saw it, so I don't see how you could say she would have no basis to say that.
Witnesses are biased, that's natural, but that doesn't mean that the police are not required to find out any information related to their case. A good police officer should be able to listen to a witness, give them enough time to describe what happened, and then sort out what is and isn't plausible. I mean someone got killed, they should be able to spare 30 minutes to hear what a witness has to say. If it was just the case of this one women, then perhaps it wouldn't be such a problem, but as I have detailed several times, how they approached witnesses in this case had several problems. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:38 am Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
Intially, the average person would conclude Zimmerman is probably guilty of something and would change their minds if/when overwhelming evidence to the contrary comes out. |
You've managed to summarize my contempt for how this entire case has been handled in a single sentence: a hoard of agenda-driven activists screaming, beating their chest, and ruining this guy's chance at a fail trial by trying to shove this whole "guilty until proven innocent" idea down the nation's collective throat.
This is a single violent incident in Florida, involving two people with no national, state-wide, or even serious local standing. It has at most state-wide significance, and even that's only due to the whole "Stand Your Ground" law issue. The national media shouldn't even be touching it, much less essentially trying the man in the court of public opinion -- which is precisely what they are doing -- and the common man should be in no rush to declare this fellow's guilt or innocence. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 5:35 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
Intially, the average person would conclude Zimmerman is probably guilty of something and would change their minds if/when overwhelming evidence to the contrary comes out. |
You've managed to summarize my contempt for how this entire case has been handled in a single sentence: a hoard of agenda-driven activists screaming, beating their chest, and ruining this guy's chance at a fail trial by trying to shove this whole "guilty until proven innocent" idea down the nation's collective throat.
This is a single violent incident in Florida, involving two people with no national, state-wide, or even serious local standing. It has at most state-wide significance, and even that's only due to the whole "Stand Your Ground" law issue. The national media shouldn't even be touching it, much less essentially trying the man in the court of public opinion -- which is precisely what they are doing -- and the common man should be in no rush to declare this fellow's guilt or innocence. |
To be fair, the agenda driven activists have been beating their chests from both sides of the aisle. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
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| Which remains, interesting you never address my view that violent crime is a function of poverty and is the one common denominator in every country and throughout history. |
I actually did address your simplistic view that violent crime is a function of poverty in another thread. Clearly, there are more factors at work than poverty, the most important being the role of parents, which for many young blacks is distinctly lacking. |
And what's the excuse of the whites in prison for violent crimes? |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Yeah I can see why the officer disregarded what she had to say. |
...and of course accepted any witness that fits the paradigm that helped Zimmerman's side of things. lol. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
Intially, the average person would conclude Zimmerman is probably guilty of something and would change their minds if/when overwhelming evidence to the contrary comes out. |
You've managed to summarize my contempt for how this entire case has been handled in a single sentence: a hoard of agenda-driven activists screaming, beating their chest, and ruining this guy's chance at a fail trial by trying to shove this whole "guilty until proven innocent" idea down the nation's collective throat.
This is a single violent incident in Florida, involving two people with no national, state-wide, or even serious local standing. It has at most state-wide significance, and even that's only due to the whole "Stand Your Ground" law issue. The national media shouldn't even be touching it, much less essentially trying the man in the court of public opinion -- which is precisely what they are doing -- and the common man should be in no rush to declare this fellow's guilt or innocence. |
Police incompetence, and issues like stand your ground laws, have wide ranging effects. This case highlights institutional problems, that while the drama of Zimmerman and Martin get most of the attention, the institutional problems can come to light as well. People have been rushing to declare Zimmerman guilty, but that is unavoidable in any publicized trial. That is why we have the court system, so theoretically it shouldn't matter what the media does.
Turns out that even Zimmerman thought the Stanford police department is incompetent.
"In a videotape of a Jan. 8, 2011, City Hall community forum obtained by CNN, Zimmerman described his experience with police:
"I also have had the opportunity to take ride-alongs with the city of Sanford Police Department, and what I saw was disgusting," Zimmerman said at the time. "The officer showed me his favorite hiding spots for taking naps. ... He took two lunch breaks and attended a going-away party for one of his fellow officers."
There is some question of whether Zimmerman's previous relationship with the police force impacted how they conducted their investigation.
"Court documents released last week of an email exchange between Zimmerman and the Sanford Police Department showed a cordial, "even friendly" relationship between Zimmerman and police, according to the CNN report.
New video from the Miami Herald also shows Zimmerman with the back of his head bandaged, unaccompanied by officers at the Sanford Police Department. Some say this illustrates Zimmerman's relationship with police, according to the Miami Herald."
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/george-zimmerman-changed-view-sanford-police-files-show-183527228.html
Although, in some ways I am sympathetic to how this national interest can affect Zimmerman, and the Martin family.
Demonizing people doesn't have anything to do with justice.
Nor does disgusting antics like this,
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/report-trayvon-martin-gun-range-targets-were-sold-155301236.html
"A shooting range target of a person in a hoodie with cross hairs on the chest, a bag of Skittles tucked in a pocket and a hand holding a can resembling iced tea was pulled from an online sales site, a Florida TV news station reports, but not before raising concerns of its connection with teen shooting victim Trayvon Martin.
WKMG Local 6's story said in an email exchange with reporter Mike DeForest that the unidentified seller wrote, "My main motivation was to make money off the controversy." The seller did not disclose how many paper targets were made, but said in an email, "The response is overwhelming. I sold out in 2 days." |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Which remains, interesting you never address my view that violent crime is a function of poverty and is the one common denominator in every country and throughout history. |
I actually did address your simplistic view that violent crime is a function of poverty in another thread. Clearly, there are more factors at work than poverty, the most important being the role of parents, which for many young blacks is distinctly lacking. |
And what's the excuse of the whites in prison for violent crimes? |
I presume that many of the whites in prison also come from very 'dysfunctional' family backgrounds. However, it is also a fact that fatherless families and teenage pregnancies, for example, are far more of a problem among blacks than whites. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
[te]
Glad you're not a police officer. (1)What are the appropriate authorities that asked him to be a neighborhood watch leader? The group wasn't affiliated with the national neighborhood watch program, and the Sanford police department that helped set it up discouraged carrying a fire arm while participating in the watch. Also if, as several eye witness claim, he was chasing after Trayvon, it would indeed seem that he was acting as a vigilante.
(2)As to some other things, Trayvon was a little boy in terms of age compared to Zimmerman, that might have been what she meant, we can't presume to know what others are thinking. I mean that's a pretty common usage of the term, at least in the south.
(3)Of course she would know if Zimmerman was chasing Martin or not, if she saw it, so I don't see how you could say she would have no basis to say that.
Witnesses are biased, that's natural, but that doesn't mean that the police are not required to find out any information related to their case. A good police officer should be able to listen to a witness, give them enough time to describe what happened, and then sort out what is and isn't plausible. I mean someone got killed, they should be able to spare 30 minutes to hear what a witness has to say. If it was just the case of this one women, then perhaps it wouldn't be such a problem, but as I have detailed several times, how they approached witnesses in this case had several problems. |
(numbers mine for clarification.)
1. http://blogs.lawyers.com/2012/04/homeowners-association-could-be-liable-in-trayvon-martins-death/
Similar links have already been posted SEVERAL times in this thread showing that the homeowners' association ASKED Zimmerman to be the "OFFICIAL" captain. Clearly you haven't been checking the FACTS or you wouldn't have asked this question about the "authorities" Glad you're not a judge.
| Quote: |
| When George Zimmerman prowled through the neighborhood looking for suspicious people in The Retreat at Twin Lakes in central Florida, he wasn�t acting totally out of the blue. Zimmerman was officially identified as the captain of the neighborhood watch in a newsletter distributed by the community�s homeowners association. Homeowners with concerns were encouraged to contact Zimmerman �so he can be aware and help address the issue with other residents.� |
2. Regardless of age he was a half foot taller than Zimmerman so I don't see how anyone describes him as a little boy...unless of course they were going by those much younger pictures of him the media originally put out.
3. Excuse me but where does she say she saw Zimmerman chasing Trayvon...I was talking about her saying she "believes". And as I pointed out, it doesn't matter what she believes....the facts (so far as they can be established) matter.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Thu May 24, 2012 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
Intially, the average person would conclude Zimmerman is probably guilty of something and would change their minds if/when overwhelming evidence to the contrary comes out. |
You've managed to summarize my contempt for how this entire case has been handled in a single sentence: a hoard of agenda-driven activists screaming, beating their chest, and ruining this guy's chance at a fail trial by trying to shove this whole "guilty until proven innocent" idea down the nation's collective throat.
This is a single violent incident in Florida, involving two people with no national, state-wide, or even serious local standing. It has at most state-wide significance, and even that's only due to the whole "Stand Your Ground" law issue. The national media shouldn't even be touching it, much less essentially trying the man in the court of public opinion -- which is precisely what they are doing -- and the common man should be in no rush to declare this fellow's guilt or innocence. |
To be fair, the agenda driven activists have been beating their chests from both sides of the aisle. |
Pointing out that Zimmerman is supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty and pointing instance after instance of the media attempting to try and 'fry' him in the court of public opinion is very different from being an activist.
Then again I guess someone promoting the idea of fair play and the idea which is a cornerstone of American jurisprudence could be seen as "activism" by some parties. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 4:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| Police incompetence, and issues like stand your ground laws, have wide ranging effects. This case highlights institutional problems, that while the drama of Zimmerman and Martin get most of the attention, the institutional problems can come to light as well. |
The incompetence of a local police agency -- and I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing that they are incompetent, because I don't care -- is a local matter. The dubious nature of a state "Stand Your Ground" law is a state matter (unless it violates the Constitution or directly contradicts a Federal law, which as far as I am aware it does not). The only institutional problem relevant to this case which has a national impact is the institutional dysfunction of the media itself.
| Leon wrote: |
| People have been rushing to declare Zimmerman guilty, but that is unavoidable in any publicized trial. |
Which is why trials ought not to be publicized when it is avoidable. When a senator gets shot in the head in an attempted assassination, okay, there's no keeping that off of the national stage. When a French Presidential contender gets accused of rape in the United States, fine, that's probably going to end up in the media. A case like this, however, only ends up in the national media when a deliberate effort is made to put it there.
| Leon wrote: |
| That is why we have the court system, so theoretically it shouldn't matter what the media does. |
Yes, and theoretically banks don't have to be regulated because the market will keep them in line. In reality, though, banks do have to be regulated, and in reality, what the media does really does matter. If he is found innocent, the accused is going to have to spend the rest of his life having been made notorious and infamous at a national level, with many who would otherwise never even have heard of the case doubting his innocence. If he is found guilty, there will always be a lingering doubt about whether media bias affected the case and injustice was done. Neither is desirable, and both were totally avoidable.
| Leon wrote: |
Turns out that even Zimmerman thought the Stanford police department is incompetent.
"In a videotape of a Jan. 8, 2011, City Hall community forum obtained by CNN, Zimmerman described his experience with police:
"I also have had the opportunity to take ride-alongs with the city of Sanford Police Department, and what I saw was disgusting," Zimmerman said at the time. "The officer showed me his favorite hiding spots for taking naps. ... He took two lunch breaks and attended a going-away party for one of his fellow officers." |
More purely local matters that have no place on the national stage. Show it on the local news and let the locals decide what they want to do about it.
| Leon wrote: |
There is some question of whether Zimmerman's previous relationship with the police force impacted how they conducted their investigation.
"Court documents released last week of an email exchange between Zimmerman and the Sanford Police Department showed a cordial, "even friendly" relationship between Zimmerman and police, according to the CNN report.
New video from the Miami Herald also shows Zimmerman with the back of his head bandaged, unaccompanied by officers at the Sanford Police Department. Some say this illustrates Zimmerman's relationship with police, according to the Miami Herald." |
More unsubstantiated rumor-mongering designed to implicate the accused even if he is found innocent, harming his reputation at a national level, and which runs the risk of creating undue bias in potential jurors, casting a shadow over a potential guilty verdict.
| Leon wrote: |
Demonizing people doesn't have anything to do with justice.
Nor does disgusting antics like this,
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/report-trayvon-martin-gun-range-targets-were-sold-155301236.html
"A shooting range target of a person in a hoodie with cross hairs on the chest, a bag of Skittles tucked in a pocket and a hand holding a can resembling iced tea was pulled from an online sales site, a Florida TV news station reports, but not before raising concerns of its connection with teen shooting victim Trayvon Martin.
WKMG Local 6's story said in an email exchange with reporter Mike DeForest that the unidentified seller wrote, "My main motivation was to make money off the controversy." The seller did not disclose how many paper targets were made, but said in an email, "The response is overwhelming. I sold out in 2 days." |
I agree with you, it is repugnant. It's also a direct result of the media activity which you claim should "theoretically" not matter and their deliberate exacerbation of racial tension. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| TUM, what was neighborhood watch instructed to do when they encounter someone suspicious? With Z being the "head" of the watch, he should know, right? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes, whether or not the "stand your ground" law is wise or not is largely a state matter. But there's a very important aspect to this case that justified national attention (if not the national media circus): the local police's seemingly racially discriminatory failure to investigate thoroughly. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Leon wrote: |
[te]
Glad you're not a police officer. (1)What are the appropriate authorities that asked him to be a neighborhood watch leader? The group wasn't affiliated with the national neighborhood watch program, and the Sanford police department that helped set it up discouraged carrying a fire arm while participating in the watch. Also if, as several eye witness claim, he was chasing after Trayvon, it would indeed seem that he was acting as a vigilante.
(2)As to some other things, Trayvon was a little boy in terms of age compared to Zimmerman, that might have been what she meant, we can't presume to know what others are thinking. I mean that's a pretty common usage of the term, at least in the south.
(3)Of course she would know if Zimmerman was chasing Martin or not, if she saw it, so I don't see how you could say she would have no basis to say that.
Witnesses are biased, that's natural, but that doesn't mean that the police are not required to find out any information related to their case. A good police officer should be able to listen to a witness, give them enough time to describe what happened, and then sort out what is and isn't plausible. I mean someone got killed, they should be able to spare 30 minutes to hear what a witness has to say. If it was just the case of this one women, then perhaps it wouldn't be such a problem, but as I have detailed several times, how they approached witnesses in this case had several problems. |
(numbers mine for clarification.)
1. http://blogs.lawyers.com/2012/04/homeowners-association-could-be-liable-in-trayvon-martins-death/
Similar links have already been posted SEVERAL times in this thread showing that the homeowners' association ASKED Zimmerman to be the "OFFICIAL" captain. Clearly you haven't been checking the FACTS or you wouldn't have asked this question about the "authorities" Glad you're not a judge.
| Quote: |
| When George Zimmerman prowled through the neighborhood looking for suspicious people in The Retreat at Twin Lakes in central Florida, he wasn�t acting totally out of the blue. Zimmerman was officially identified as the captain of the neighborhood watch in a newsletter distributed by the community�s homeowners association. Homeowners with concerns were encouraged to contact Zimmerman �so he can be aware and help address the issue with other residents.� |
2. Regardless of age he was a half foot taller than Zimmerman so I don't see how anyone describes him as a little boy...unless of course they were going by those much younger pictures of him the media originally put out.
3. Excuse me but where does she say she saw Zimmerman chasing Trayvon...I was talking about her saying she "believes". And as I pointed out, it doesn't matter what she believes....the facts (so far as they can be established) matter. |
1. I know they asked him, what I'm saying is that he went beyond the bounds of the "watch" position by carrying a firearm, which both the national neighborhood watch association and local police force in question, both instruct "watchers" to do. Also, if he pursued, which some witnesses say he did but of course we don't know one way or the other, than he would have clearly gone beyond neighborhood watch behavior, especially if he was in deed chasing Martin as opposed to merely following.
2. Southern women, in my experience, say things like that, its weird. I'm not sure how she was using it.
3. That would be the sort of thing the police should try to figure out. Does she "believe" it because she saw it, or just because of what she thinks. We don't know, but it makes a large difference, and it is the sort of thing the police should be figuring out. |
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