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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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 Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| I prefer my pretzels salty. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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1. Superfluous. Complete waste of time. Needless thread. Mods, please delete & lock.
2. This documentary is radically biased in its motives and assumptions. Pay it no attention.
3. Indonesians and other third-worlders should cease working in their factory jobs. Who needs money, food & heat, anyway? |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| please delete & lock |
I hardly think they need do both. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| please delete & lock |
I hardly think they need do both. |
Nuke it from orbit. That's the only way to be sure.
I'm always amazed that it's the more liberal people who oppose globalization. In theory, globalization is simply spreading the economic wealth by letting workers who live in terrible, impoverished conditions do a job for a wage that improves their lives. Correspondingly, an evil rich worker in a developed nation has to learn new skills because their job is now done in a developing nation.
In practice, governments often skew the results... Some take bribes which decrease market efficiency, or disregard the wellbeing of their constituents with regard to pollution. But in the end, the workers are -choosing- to leave their subsistence farms to find better work. And there isn't a damn thing wrong with giving them that opportunity. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:22 am Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| please delete & lock |
I hardly think they need do both. |
Nuke it from orbit. That's the only way to be sure.
I'm always amazed that it's the more liberal people who oppose globalization. In theory, globalization is simply spreading the economic wealth by letting workers who live in terrible, impoverished conditions do a job for a wage that improves their lives. Correspondingly, an evil rich worker in a developed nation has to learn new skills because their job is now done in a developing nation.
In practice, governments often skew the results... Some take bribes which decrease market efficiency, or disregard the wellbeing of their constituents with regard to pollution. But in the end, the workers are -choosing- to leave their subsistence farms to find better work. And there isn't a damn thing wrong with giving them that opportunity. |
You either haven't watched the documentary or haven't the wherewithal to comprehend it.
Further clues in part 2-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igp9g-AlQ_g
Eerie echoes (view from 4:35) to the massacres which occured in Korea under the auspices of another US-sponsored ruler (Sygnman Rhee). |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| There goes Dave Chance again - insulting those that disagree with his agenda. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:43 am Post subject: |
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Try making an informed post after you've considered the material presented at the links.
That is, if your agenda can handle it. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| There goes Dave Chance again - insulting those that disagree with his agenda. |
Indeed.
Dave doesn't have to convince me that U.S. military interventionism is bad, or that governments should avoid sovereign debt except in the most extraordinary of circumstances. If the point is that central governments use excessive power and often in corrupt ways that hurt their constituents, then we're in agreement.
But the argument the wealth gap is too big and that globalization is to blame is absurd. The factory workers in the documentary would be worse off if the Gap corporation sourced its products in the U.S. People work there because the alternative is worse. The fact that the alternative is worse is far more the fault of their government (and its Faustian deals with international finance) than of the Gap corporation.
sovereign debt and government corruption ≠ globalization |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| Dave Chance wrote: |
| Try making an informed post after you've considered the material presented |
OK. I still go for cinnamon over chocolate. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Julius wrote: |
| Dave Chance wrote: |
| Try making an informed post after you've considered the material presented |
OK. I still go for cinnamon over chocolate. |
Madness |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Chance wrote: |
Try making an informed post after you've considered the material presented at the links.
That is, if your agenda can handle it. |
or I can comment about how you insult people who don't agree with your agenda.
That's MY choice.
You've clearly got an agenda here on this board, and many people are noticing it.
But that's not really the issue - more to the fact that you seem to be quick to insult people that don't join in on your little party.
Face it, not everyone agrees with you. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Dave Chance wrote: |
Try making an informed post after you've considered the material presented at the links.
That is, if your agenda can handle it. |
or I can comment about how you insult people who don't agree with your agenda.
That's MY choice.
You've clearly got an agenda here on this board, and many people are noticing it.
But that's not really the issue - more to the fact that you seem to be quick to insult people that don't join in on your little party.
Face it, not everyone agrees with you. |
What's gotten into your cereal today then, Captain? It's a fact of life that not everyone is going to agree with you, and even moreso if you question any of the prevailing trends, so I don't get up every morning and go out into the world looking for lemmingesque agreement.
Tell ya what- instead of trying to get a rise out of people who don't agree with you and your agenda, why not actually watch the videos at the links and comment on them? Then there might be the opportunity to actually have a semi-intelligent discussion. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Chance wrote: |
| Tell ya what- instead of trying to get a rise out of people who don't agree with you and your agenda, why not actually watch the videos at the links and comment on them? Then there might be the opportunity to actually have a semi-intelligent discussion. |
It would be great if you'd take your own advice here. Northway, Kimbap, Kuros and I have all commented on the video. Yet instead of defending your opinion, you snipe meaninglessly with people and accuse them of not watching it at all.
It's the "You don't agree with me, so you obviously didn't watch the 100% persuasive video" attitude that Captain Corea is rightfully calling you out on. You're acting like a religious nut who thinks that anyone who reads the Bible will become a Christian. |
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Dave Chance
Joined: 30 May 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| please delete & lock |
I hardly think they need do both. |
Nuke it from orbit. That's the only way to be sure.
I'm always amazed that it's the more liberal people who oppose globalization. In theory, globalization is simply spreading the economic wealth by letting workers who live in terrible, impoverished conditions do a job for a wage that improves their lives. Correspondingly, an evil rich worker in a developed nation has to learn new skills because their job is now done in a developing nation.
In practice, governments often skew the results... Some take bribes which decrease market efficiency, or disregard the wellbeing of their constituents with regard to pollution. But in the end, the workers are -choosing- to leave their subsistence farms to find better work. And there isn't a damn thing wrong with giving them that opportunity. |
"please delete & lock"
"I hardly think they need do both.
Nuke it from orbit."
So Comm, these are what you would term 'commenting' on a video in a
manner which justifies some kind of reasoned defense...alright then, "Please shut up" is about as close to that level of reasoned argument that I need to go, in lieu of any quality reasons provided on their part, and also applies to your level of reasoning regarding that.
As for your argument that there isn't a 'damn thing wrong with giving them the opportunity'- aside from its colonial overlord tone implying those people don't have what it takes to make their own opportunity, you seem to have overlooked the fact that what the documentary is making clear is that they haven't had much of a choice in the matter due to the depredations of the Dutch and then Suharto cutting deals with the IMF and World Bank for the sake of his own interests, finding time along the way to massacre a million of his citizens to silence any opposition.
I think it's a given you haven't spent any appreciable time in Indonesia (apart possibly from a touristy jaunt to Bali) to really understand how the issues weigh on the Indonesian people, and how hard the average person (one who has a decent income to live comfortably isn't the norm) has it in daily life. Pretty much anyone who watches the videos with a critical eye will have to admit the working and living conditions in today's Indonesia in no way reflects the will of the majority of the people living there. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Dave Chance wrote: |
"please delete & lock"
"I hardly think they need do both.
Nuke it from orbit." |
I figured you'd catch that I was making fun of Kimbap's overkill... I thought it was funny anyway.
| Dave Chance wrote: |
| As for your argument that there isn't a 'damn thing wrong with giving them the opportunity'- aside from its colonial overlord tone implying those people don't have what it takes to make their own opportunity, you seem to have overlooked the fact that what the documentary is making clear is that they haven't had much of a choice in the matter... |
Well then, allow me to rephrase that as "offering them the opportunity". I'm not saying that the opportunity is good, but that it's better to offer it than to not offer it.
| Dave Chance wrote: |
| Pretty much anyone who watches the videos with a critical eye will have to admit the working and living conditions in today's Indonesia in no way reflects the will of the majority of the people living there. |
Now we're getting to the meat of things. The idea that "working and living conditions" should "reflect the will of the people" doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on reality. The "will of the people" might be to ride polka dot unicorns over rainbow bridges, but that doesn't mean it's going to happen.
But... IF the conditions that the people have been stuck with by a previous leader are unacceptable, it's THEIR responsibility to deal with it. Elect politicians that will reject further debt, refuse to pay back what they owe, and devalue the hell out of their currency. There will be short term pain, but that's the option they have. If no leader is willing to do this, I'd gladly cheer on another violent revolution against yet another government that has failed its people. |
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