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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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 Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| motiontodismiss wrote: |
Korea has conscription. This in and of itself makes it less free than the US. End of story.
Forcing someone to risk their lives for you for a pitiful "wage" against their will (slavery) is a greater infringement of freedom than some perverted TSA monkey seeing naked pictures of me at the airport.  And the stupid "reserve" nonsense? That's just gov't harassment.
I don't care if it's the government doing the enslaving and I don't care what purpose it's for. I'm a firm believer in capitalism and I believe that people have an absolute right to sell their services at the highest (or at least market) price (barring criminal conduct). The fact that the government does it makes it even worse. And think about it for a second; in a capitalist society, would you trust something as important as national defense to someone getting paid 30 cents an hour?  I sure as hell wouldn't (which is why I hate flying regional jets...the pilots qualify for food stamps) |
Yeah, I didn't really expand on it in my post but you're right on the money. People who don't have to serve (Korean women, and possibly foreigners) take it for granted and may not understand it. Everything else can be subjective, but conscription is the one big thing that bars Korea from being considered a truly free country. The idea that the government owns your life and can force you to give up your constitutional rights such as freedom speech and privacy (both of which you don't have as a conscript) as a citizen is absurd and dangerous. Not only do you not have freedom, you're life is literally in the hands of the government and they can spend it as they see fit. Being forced to kill others and dying is a real aspect of it but not many people really think about it because war is far from their minds. And it pisses me off that so many people don't realize this. They just think, "Oh it's just two years of hard labor," which it is in reality but that's the goddamn problem.
It's not just conscription itself that pisses off but the acceptance by the general populace that it's just something you do without question. People say it's to "make you a man" or it's your "duty" or some other asinine drivel but never stop to ask, "Is this freaking right on a basic human level? Is this the kind of country we want?" This type of mindset bothers me a lot. It's the type of mindset that thinks its ok for authorities to close down stores in some half-assed attempt to make things "fair" or to set a fixed price on products instead of the consumers deciding for themselves. It's the type of mindset that thinks the military dictatorship era were the "good old days." If you have to force people to fight for a country if it is invaded, then it's questionable that it's a country worth fighting for.
| motiontodismiss wrote: |
| ajuma wrote: |
| There's this thing in Korea called "personal responsibility". If you fall on your ass because you didn't see the bump in the sidewalk, it's YOUR responsibility! You don't sue the sidewalk owner. If you spill hot coffee in your lap, you don't sue Micky D's...you deal with your stupidity. |
EXCEPT when drunk. Being drunk absolves you of ALL responsibility, personal or otherwise. |
I was actually surprised people crapped on America's lack of personal responsibility but praise Korea's. |
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Andromeda
Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Location: Woodstock, GA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I just have to take a moment to observe a great thing about a land of opporitunity. Opporitunity is all about opporitunists (read selfish). A man may now be judged only by his merrit alone. The Golden Rule is now self-induldgence, screw the other before he/she screws you. |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| NovaKart wrote: |
| The woman in the hot coffee case had very serious burns from the coffee and a lot of other people had complained about the coffee before and been injured and McDonalds did nothing about it. |
So you intentionally go into your favorite coffee shop and ask for them to cool your coffee down so you don't burn yourself?
DUH.... ONLY in the litigious states of America would someone successfully sue because their HOT COFFEE was actually hot.
We're talking the same country where a former Secretary of State and former National Security Adviser (Henry Kissinger) was groped and manhandled before they let him on a plane in New York because at 89 years of age, crippled and in a wheelchair he is such a great security risk as a possible terrorist.
He is OK to ride on Air Force One, is on a first name basis with 4 prior presidents, won the Nobel peace prize, pioneered the policy of d�tente, opened relations with China and negotiated the Paris Peace Accords but is not OK to ride on a public plane.
And the people of the US casually put up with it.
Or to paraphrase an old US politician (Ben Franklin), �Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.�
The founding fathers gave up security to gain the freedom so often touted as part and parcel of the American dream and the Generation Xers turned around and gave up their freedom for some perceived security and in turn got nothing but tyrants and a bankrupt (morally and financially) government and loss of their freedom for their trouble.
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I think the TSA makes America less free, and I hate it like everyone else, but in a sense it makes it more free that Kissinger had the same treatment as everyone else. If he received special treatment because of who he was, it would mean America had separate standards for different classes of people. Also, I hope it was uncomfortable and embarrassing for him. He deserves as much, and more, for his policies in Cambodia and Latin America. I hope they search him every time. |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| NovaKart wrote: |
| I've said what I had to say on this topic so I'll just point out again that McDonalds had numerous complaints by hundreds of people who had been excuse me, scalded, by their coffee some of which included 3rd degree "scalds". Probably most of us have drunk coffee in a car before, it's not usually considered an especially dangerous habit and probably most of us have spilled liquids on ourselves. The picture of the woman's injuries is on the internet and is very disturbing. They shouldn't have been serving coffee that was so hot and the payout which was I believe around $650,000 was a drop in the bucket for McDonalds. |
your argument doesn't even have a leg to stand on. if you can't understand that coffee is made with boiling water and designed fundamentally to be enjoyed at very high temperature and proceed to spill it on yourself then you need to go back to grade school and study heat and how cups work.
if you then grasp those concepts you can take the advanced course on fluid dynamics and why combining motion whether it be in a vehicle, on foot, riding a dolphin, etc., and hot liquids in open-top containers are a bad idea.
in my opinion people like her deserve everything they get (besides payouts for their stupidity). it's darwinian natural selection at work. it's just unfortunate she didn't choose to ignore the "hazardous to your health if ingested" warning on bleach bottles. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| because at 89 years of age, crippled and in a wheelchair he is such a great security risk as a possible terrorist. |
Did he have a bell on his wheelchair? |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:32 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| because at 89 years of age, crippled and in a wheelchair he is such a great security risk as a possible terrorist. |
Did he have a bell on his wheelchair? |
It wasn't just the age (TSA screws with hundreds of old folks every day) but the who that made it newsworthy.
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 4:25 am Post subject: |
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| ttompatz wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| because at 89 years of age, crippled and in a wheelchair he is such a great security risk as a possible terrorist. |
Did he have a bell on his wheelchair? |
It wasn't just the age (TSA screws with hundreds of old folks every day) but the who that made it newsworthy.
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So it would have been better, or more free, if they just let higher ranking people skip the things that others have to go through? Is that what you are really arguing? |
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ttompatz
Joined: 05 Sep 2005
Location: Kwangju, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| ttompatz wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
| because at 89 years of age, crippled and in a wheelchair he is such a great security risk as a possible terrorist. |
Did he have a bell on his wheelchair? |
It wasn't just the age (TSA screws with hundreds of old folks every day) but the who that made it newsworthy.
. |
So it would have been better, or more free, if they just let higher ranking people skip the things that others have to go through? Is that what you are really arguing? |
The original point was that nobody should have to go through it.
| ttompatz wrote: |
Or to paraphrase an old US politician (Ben Franklin), �Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.�
The founding fathers gave up security to gain the freedom so often touted as part and parcel of the American dream and the Generation Xers turned around and gave up their freedom for some perceived security and in turn got nothing but tyrants and a bankrupt (morally and financially) government and loss of their freedom for their trouble. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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Tyrants ttom?
Really? 
Corrupt politicians...sure
Tyrants....not quite.
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JustinC
Joined: 10 Mar 2012
Location: We Are The World!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Countries with mandatory military service;
1 Armenia, 2 Austria, 3 Belarus, 4 Bermuda, 5 Brazil, 6 Myanmar (Burma) 7 Colombia, 8 Cyprus, 9 Denmark, 10 Egypt, 11 Finland, 12 Greece, 13 Iran, 14 Israel, 15 South Korea, 16 Mexico, 17 Norway, 18 Philippines, 19 Russia, 20 Singapore, 21 Switzerland, 22 Taiwan (ROC), 23 Turkey, 24 Ukraine.
Hardly a bastion of feudalism, eh?
My grandfather, a conscript, killed Nazis in WWII and was decorated by the King, retiring as a Major. Calling that 'slavery' is offensive and disrespectful to all of his friends that lost their lives and the mothers and children who lost their fathers, brothers, sons etc. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| JustinC wrote: |
| My grandfather, a conscript, killed Nazis in WWII and was decorated by the King, retiring as a Major. Calling that 'slavery' is offensive and disrespectful to all of his friends that lost their lives and the mothers and children who lost their fathers, brothers, sons etc. |
And as a conscript, he wasn't honored for being willing to voluntarily fight Nazis, only for being good at it. If anything, it's conscription itself that is disrespectful.
No one is saying that slaves can't act honorably and be commended for it. But when another person or group of people has control of your body, that's pretty much slavery. |
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figshdg
Joined: 01 May 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| JustinC wrote: |
Countries with mandatory military service;
1 Armenia, 2 Austria, 3 Belarus, 4 Bermuda, 5 Brazil, 6 Myanmar (Burma) 7 Colombia, 8 Cyprus, 9 Denmark, 10 Egypt, 11 Finland, 12 Greece, 13 Iran, 14 Israel, 15 South Korea, 16 Mexico, 17 Norway, 18 Philippines, 19 Russia, 20 Singapore, 21 Switzerland, 22 Taiwan (ROC), 23 Turkey, 24 Ukraine.
Hardly a bastion of feudalism, eh?
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A rather mixed bag of some of the most democratic and free countries, and some of the least democratic and free countries somewhat dilutes your point. Besides, there's at least one country I can see missing from that list. Most would describe it as the least free country on earth. Most would probably describe it as feudalistic. That country is a few miles north of Seoul. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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Conscription certainly made sense from about the late 1700s till the end of the Cold War. That was a time where another country would invade you simply because they wanted more land or felt you deserved to die. Ensuring that everyone had a basic level of military training would allow your army to rapidly expand in times of war and perform at a higher level.
It makes sense in a country like Israel where your neighbors outnumber you like 50-1 and their religious leaders have vowed your annihilation. You know a country where bombs go off regularly and stuff like that.
Now, while people might have some allegiance to their country and would fight if attacked, to get them to that level of basic military training, you might need conscription. This is because that while 20 year old males love to fight other 20 year old males, they like partying and 20 year old girls a lot more. It's not that they don't view their country as worth fighting for, its just if the choice is "go clubbing" vs. "drop down and give me 50" which would you choose?
Conscription is like taxes, it sucks, but sometimes that's part of living in a free society. Responsibilities before pleasures.
Now, as I said, in the 21st century, outside of a handful of nations, conscription is pretty pointless. I don't picture legions of Argentinians swarming across the Brazilian border, and I doubt the Russian bear is going to make a move on Finland. It isn't the old days.
Is compulsory education anti-freedom? Isn't conscription in part, compulsory education?
That being said, being drafted to go fight in some rice paddy over some vague notions of "Domino Theories" and whatnot strikes me as something that might be cause for ignoring the law. Still, in the end I'd go if one of my friends had to go. Couldn't look him in the face ever again if he went and I bailed. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Happy SK doesn't have as much gun freedom as back home. |
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fosterman
Joined: 16 Nov 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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simple really, AMERICA has no freedom. never has, and never will!
it's a controlled nation by a few people at the top, always has been and always will be..
ask any native Indian or black about Freedom.
the day the white man set food on the land, he said. THE POLICE HAVE ARRIVE! it's our way or death.
millions got the bullet.
but Korea is slowly changing too, thanks to American influence.
the American doctrine of ownership and control has spread across the world to all it's allies, 100 years from now, 200 years from now will be a society with full control ,ownership and dictatorship. the master plan will come into being.
glad I will not be around then, the dark ages were dark. well it's about to get a whole lot darker in the future. A LOT. |
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