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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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 Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| There are plenty of posters here who live and work in China as we speak, and they do not generally construe gaining employment in China as a particularly difficult obstacle to overcome. |
English teachers, and other Western expats represent a tiny proportion of the Chinese population, and the small number of those who may gain residency/citizenship make a negligible difference to the country's ethnic balance. (And the Chinese no doubt intend to maintain this ethnic balance through the strict enforcement of their immigration laws). That's a little different from the millions of non-white immigrants that pour into the US and Europe every year. And still we have to apologize for our past crimes. It seems the tree of white guilt must be endlessly refreshed with admissions of past wrongdoings. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| It seems the tree of white guilt must be endlessly refreshed with admissions of past wrongdoings. |
You realize the measure passed unanimously in the Senate, don't you? That means you are to the right of every GOP Senator in the U.S. on this issue.
One thing I will say about the U.S. Republican Party: they are rather balanced when it comes to China. Perhaps that's a result of Nixon's legacy. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
| the second almost certainly requires long-term residency, which itself means obtaining the legal right to work in China |
Would this really be an especial challenge for anyone on this forum? There are plenty of posters here who live and work in China as we speak, and they do not generally construe gaining employment in China as a particularly difficult obstacle to overcome. And even if for some reason you can't, there is always category C, which I am also not entirely certain how to interpret but does not sound especially restrictive to me.
Rollo and Kuros both have experience living in China, perhaps one of them could offer a more thorough explanation of the details. |
You've pretty much pointed us to the law. I don't know anyone who has naturalized to become a Chinese, though, so I don't know the details. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| When did apologizing for things that no living person is even remotely responsible for anymore get trendy? Frankly, I'm sick of it. |
Think of it from the Chinese perspective. I believe the gesture is quite valuable and worthwhile. |
Meaningful to politicians and bureaucrats anyway. I doubt anyone who was actually affected by the exclusion act gives a rat's ass at this point in time. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| When did apologizing for things that no living person is even remotely responsible for anymore get trendy? Frankly, I'm sick of it. |
Think of it from the Chinese perspective. I believe the gesture is quite valuable and worthwhile. |
Meaningful to politicians and bureaucrats anyway. I doubt anyone who was actually affected by the exclusion act gives a rat's ass at this point in time. |
Yeah, while I get Kuros's point, I always just roll my eyes when I hear about governments issuing formal "apologies". If any good comes from it then fine, but to me any symbolism just pales next to the sheer hypocrisy (ie. as if either the US or Chinese states actually feel an iota of shame or remorse about how their laws negatively impact people). |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
Tsk tsk.
The Chinese Exclusion Act was the first immigration and naturalization law in the history of the United States. Before that, there were neither legal nor illegal immigrants, only immigrants. And the United States was, and still is, an immigrant nation. Thus, Chinese were singled out, and denied the equal protection of the laws (at least insofar as it affected Chinese already within the United States). The concerns were entirely racial. The law was motivated by loathsome stereotypes of Chinese.
wiki Chinese Exclusion Act
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The Act excluded Chinese "skilled and unskilled laborers employed in mining" from entering the country for ten years under penalty of imprisonment and deportation.
Any Chinese who left the United States had to obtain certifications for reentry, and the Act made Chinese immigrants permanent aliens by excluding them from U.S. citizenship. After the Act's passage, Chinese men in the U.S. had little chance of ever reuniting with their wives, or of starting families in their new homes. |
| Titus wrote: |
| I anticipate a similar apology from the Chinese for excluding everybody since forever. |
Ignorant.
| radcon wrote: |
| Can I immigrate to China and become a citizen? If not I want my apology from China. |
Moronic. |
Man apply for a job a Gaweker. All the cool snarky girls go there. You'll fit in. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 9:02 am Post subject: |
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While it may possible for a non ethnically chinese to get citzenship in theory,but the reality is it is not going to happen. People who are married to a Chinese citizen own busiinesses have lived there for a couple of decades find it almost impossible to even get the Chinese equivalent of a green card.l
I personally know a french citizen who has lived in China for thirty years, is married to a Chinese citizen works for a large cities government qand has investments in China. He tried for a couple of years to get a provincial "green card" no luck.
I am glad the U.S apologized it was overdue. Things like this are a big deal in Asia. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Underwaterbob wrote: |
| When did apologizing for things that no living person is even remotely responsible for anymore get trendy? Frankly, I'm sick of it. |
Think of it from the Chinese perspective. I believe the gesture is quite valuable and worthwhile. |
Meaningful to politicians and bureaucrats anyway. I doubt anyone who was actually affected by the exclusion act gives a rat's ass at this point in time. |
I don't know where you'd come to the conclusion that the apology was directed to the Chinese actually affected, and who are now long passed.
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SECTION 1. ACKNOWLEDGMENT AND EXPRESSION OF REGRET.
(1) acknowledges that this framework of anti-Chinese legislation, including the Chinese Exclusion Act, is incompatible with the basic founding principles recognized in the Declaration of Independence that all persons are created equal;
(2) deeply regrets passing 6 decades of legislation directly targeting the Chinese people for physical and political exclusion and the wrongs committed against Chinese and American citizens of Chinese descent who suffered under these discriminatory laws; and
(3) reaffirms its commitment to preserving the same civil rights and constitutional protections for people of Chinese or other Asian descent in the United States accorded to all others, regardless of their race or ethnicity. |
This bill is a recognition of U.S. failure:
(1) to live up to its own ideals;
(2) to respect an ethnic heritage presently constituting over 1/6th of the world's population; and
(3) to reassure members of that ethnic heritage and others, many now American citizens, that the injustice will not be repeated.
Moreover, the timing is meaningful. Asians are the largest ethnic wave of immigrants arriving to the United States.
As rollo suggests, this kind of gesture will have a greater resonance with Chinese than it might have it were directed to a ethnic swath modern Westerners. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| I t was long overdue , a group of people who helped build the U.S were penalized because T hey worked harder ,cheaper and better than other groups. The chinese were also very law abiding. A very ugly page in American history. |
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yodanole
Joined: 02 Mar 2003
Location: La Florida
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
(1) to live up to its own ideals |
Whose ideals? Who and what is the US? When did turning the country into the New Balkans become an American ideal?
Perhaps you mean the ideals used by the ruling class to convince the masses that their interests are in fact the interests of the ruling class? Universalism as union busting? We have no interests because there is no us. That's the point of those American ideals.
The opposition to Chinese immigration was born in California and extended up into Canada. The opposition was not racial in itself but rooted in the understanding that the new labor was undercutting the wages of the existing labor and that there was effectively an endless supply of this new labor. Men needed a good wage and organized themselves appropriately. No apology for this is needed. Fast forward 40 years without similar policies in the USA and we have the economic carnage that exists today with declining wages, increasing costs and ethnic/racial polarization. Good job. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| The opposition to Chinese immigration was born in California and extended up into Canada. The opposition was not racial in itself but rooted in the understanding that the new labor was undercutting the wages of the existing labor and that there was effectively an endless supply of this new labor. |
That part of the opposition may not have been racial, just about every other aspect of the opposition was. And do you seriously believe that everyone in the late 1800s was opposed to Chinese immigration simply for economic reasons? This in a country that was still under Jim Crow? |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Titus wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
(1) to live up to its own ideals |
Whose ideals? Who and what is the US? When did turning the country into the New Balkans become an American ideal?
Perhaps you mean the ideals used by the ruling class to convince the masses that their interests are in fact the interests of the ruling class? Universalism as union busting? We have no interests because there is no us. That's the point of those American ideals.
The opposition to Chinese immigration was born in California and extended up into Canada. The opposition was not racial in itself but rooted in the understanding that the new labor was undercutting the wages of the existing labor and that there was effectively an endless supply of this new labor. Men needed a good wage and organized themselves appropriately. No apology for this is needed. Fast forward 40 years without similar policies in the USA and we have the economic carnage that exists today with declining wages, increasing costs and ethnic/racial polarization. Good job. |
The Chinese Exclusion Act wasn't about protecting unions or labor. It was about excluding Chinese, and keeping those here from ever becoming citizens. Hence the name, The Chinese Exclusion Act.
The Chinese weren't the only ones who built the railroads. Many Irish immigrants worked on the railroads, as well.
You can make an argument for restricting immigration generally. I would recommend you take it up in another thread, though. The Chinese Exclusion Act was about racial animus. It was about persecuting and disenfranchising those of Chinese descent. That's why it was aimed at Chinese specifically. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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Q: Why did you exclude the Chinese?
A: Because there were unlike us and a hell of a lot were arriving and a few hundred million left over in China grinding in poverty.
Of course this simple truth is today deemed racist and hateful, for the universalist regime demands nothing else, but some cracks are already showing:
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100148320/george-galloways-victory-shows-that-british-politics-is-dividing-down-tribal-lines/
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Yet people in multi-ethnic societies do tend to vote on ethnic lines. In the United States 96 per cent of African-Americans voted Democrat in 2008, but no one criticised them for it. And Southern whites at the same election voted Republican by 73-27 per cent and in Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana 85 per cent voted for the GOP.
Liberals are baffled and infuriated that poor whites vote Republican, yet voting on tribal grounds is a feature of all multi-ethnic democracies, whether it�s Northern Ireland, Lebanon or Iraq. The more a majority becomes a minority the more tribal its voting becomes, so that increasingly the Republicans have become the �white party�; making this point indelicately got Pat Buchanan the sack, but many others make it too.
Will it happen here? The patterns are not dissimilar. In the 2010 election the Conservatives won only 16 per cent of the ethnic minority vote, while Labour won the support of 72 per cent of Bangladeshis, 78 per cent of African-Caribbeans and 87 per cent of Africans. The Tories are slightly stronger among British Hindus and Sikhs � mirroring Republican support among Asian-Americans � who are more likely to be home-owning professionals and feel less alienated.
The Economist recently asked if the Tories had a �race problem�, but it may just be that democracy has a race problem. |
Progress isn't, and hell is our future. Hell, it seems, is less bad than racism, so bring it on. The Balkans weren't so bad. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| And still we have to apologize for our past crimes. It seems the tree of white guilt must be endlessly refreshed with admissions of past wrongdoings. |
We don't have to do anything of the sort. Stop apologizing. That's the solution. We are a people and deserve our own homes. Same for the Chinese and Koreans. We've been bullied into submission and submerged in Kali Yuga by a collection of infirm ninnys. |
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