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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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 Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| I would also argue that, if at the end of the course, you have the majority of students getting scores that would get them an A, then your method of assessment is flawed. |
I think a lot of the teachers will be in the same boat. I don't think that many students got Cs last semester. I am definitely going to make it more difficult next semester. That was my first semester, so it was kind of a trial run for my assessment system, but I just feel a bit bad for the students. I think I am too nice lol. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| I would also argue that, if at the end of the course, you have the majority of students getting scores that would get them an A, then your method of assessment is flawed. |
This is true. If a student gets an A or a B then it means that they are above average. The average mark can't be above average.
If there were national standards, then it may be possible for the majority of students in one particular class to get marks above the national average. If on the other hand, the standards are being set by YOU and apply only to your class, then you can't logically give everyone an above average mark. The average mark is a C. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:39 am Post subject: |
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If you want to avoid some of the students coming to complain about their marks, try this.
Tell the students that
A = top 10% (or top 5%)
B = next 10% (or 15%)
C = next 65%
D = bottom 15%
PLUS, anyone who doesn't meet a certain standard will fail.
When you give them a test or assignment, make sure that the mark is an odd number, not 100. After you mark them, line them all up from highest to lowest score.
There's the mark. It's a normal bell curve. It perfectly reflects any normal group of people.
When they ask you to raise their mark, you can ask them if it's right for student A to have his mark lowered so that student B can have his mark raised. There are a limited number of A and B. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| I would also argue that, if at the end of the course, you have the majority of students getting scores that would get them an A, then your method of assessment is flawed. |
This is true. If a student gets an A or a B then it means that they are above average. The average mark can't be above average. |
But a "C" indicates an objective average, not average in their particular class. If you have a class of mostly above-average students, shouldn't they get mostly above-average marks?
Still, if I were in this situation, I'd definitely go with your approach of letting them know the system ahead of time. They need to know it's a competition before you force them to compete. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
I don't mind it, because it prevents the devaluation of A and A+ grades, and removes the temptation for lazy professors to just give the class all As. It also means that there is more comparative value when looking at a transcript - an A will always mean they were at least in the top 3rd of the class, for example.
So, in answer to your question, I don't think it is unethical at all. The students accept it and live with it, and I would too, if I was in their position. |
I completely agree. You know, I kept saying to a prospective employer that the reason why I got a D in English, math and science was because in each case my class was full of geniuses, but he wouldn't buy it! Can I refer him to you?
Thanks. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| I would also argue that, if at the end of the course, you have the majority of students getting scores that would get them an A, then your method of assessment is flawed. |
This is true. If a student gets an A or a B then it means that they are above average. The average mark can't be above average. |
But a "C" indicates an objective average, not average in their particular class. If you have a class of mostly above-average students, shouldn't they get mostly above-average marks?
Still, if I were in this situation, I'd definitely go with your approach of letting them know the system ahead of time. They need to know it's a competition before you force them to compete. |
One of the biggest problems was that the new 'guidelines' (that should actually be 'rules') was that it was introduced in typically slapdash Korean style halfway through a semester, so the students haven't had time to acclimatise. To be honest, I hope it forces some of the lazy students to pull their finger out a bit more. |
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hogwonguy1979
Joined: 22 Dec 2003
Location: the racoon den
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
If you want to avoid some of the students coming to complain about their marks, try this.
Tell the students that
A = top 10% (or top 5%)
B = next 10% (or 15%)
C = next 65%
D = bottom 15%
PLUS, anyone who doesn't meet a certain standard will fail.
When you give them a test or assignment, make sure that the mark is an odd number, not 100. After you mark them, line them all up from highest to lowest score.
There's the mark. It's a normal bell curve. It perfectly reflects any normal group of people.
When they ask you to raise their mark, you can ask them if it's right for student A to have his mark lowered so that student B can have his mark raised. There are a limited number of A and B. |
I basically follow this example with the univ mandated quotas (20-35%A etc..) Its handed out the beginning of the semester and again when i give information on the final. I tell the students they will get 3 grades, a numerical grade, a rank in class and a letter grade.
I find the last part to be particularly effective in dealing with complaining students. I ask them is if fair to jump them over students who got higher grades? |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
If you want to avoid some of the students coming to complain about their marks, try this.
Tell the students that
A = top 10% (or top 5%)
B = next 10% (or 15%)
C = next 65%
D = bottom 15%
PLUS, anyone who doesn't meet a certain standard will fail.
When you give them a test or assignment, make sure that the mark is an odd number, not 100. After you mark them, line them all up from highest to lowest score.
There's the mark. It's a normal bell curve. It perfectly reflects any normal group of people.
When they ask you to raise their mark, you can ask them if it's right for student A to have his mark lowered so that student B can have his mark raised. There are a limited number of A and B. |
I agree that it makes sense to tell students about this type of system ahead of time. That would certainly limit the number of complaints the students may have. In any case, the complaints that teachers get from students/parents in regards to grading makes me realize why Korean teachers use multiple choice tests nearly at all times. Essay questions, creating-writing assignments - while there is an element of bias which may manifest itself when marking such assignments, the fact that students complain anytime they are not given the highest grades tells you just how little trust (or respect?) teachers get from students/parents in regards to their grading skills.
Admittedly, the marking system described by the TS justifies many such complaints made by students - especially if they are comparing their grades to students in other, lower level, classes. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| I've just been asked by the English Department Office to bump a student up from D to C, despite the fact she got 10/30 for her mid-term and final tests. That was a multiple choice test and the only way to bump the grade is by adding 10%. |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
I don't mind it, because it prevents the devaluation of A and A+ grades, and removes the temptation for lazy professors to just give the class all As. It also means that there is more comparative value when looking at a transcript - an A will always mean they were at least in the top 3rd of the class, for example.
So, in answer to your question, I don't think it is unethical at all. The students accept it and live with it, and I would too, if I was in their position. |
I completely agree. You know, I kept saying to a prospective employer that the reason why I got a D in English, math and science was because in each case my class was full of geniuses, but he wouldn't buy it! Can I refer him to you?
Thanks. |
Maybe you should have worked harder to get a higher ranking in the class. Not sure what sending him to me will accomplish; all I can really attest to regarding you is your middling sarcasm skills. |
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maximmm
Joined: 01 Feb 2008
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| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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| cj1976 wrote: |
| I've just been asked by the English Department Office to bump a student up from D to C, despite the fact she got 10/30 for her mid-term and final tests. That was a multiple choice test and the only way to bump the grade is by adding 10%. |
No 'child' left behind!^^ |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| I would also argue that, if at the end of the course, you have the majority of students getting scores that would get them an A, then your method of assessment is flawed. |
This is true. If a student gets an A or a B then it means that they are above average. The average mark can't be above average. |
But a "C" indicates an objective average, not average in their particular class. If you have a class of mostly above-average students, shouldn't they get mostly above-average marks?
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From what the OP said (and from what I've observed at colleges here) the students aren't being graded on a national level. Their rarely even being graded on a department wide level. They're being graded within the individual class.
If they are to be graded based on an external standard, then that would have to be established in advance. There may be a desire to compare them to every other class that the particular teacher taught but that still doesn't compare them to classes that other teachers taught. Or that were taught in other colleges. If the department could come up with a standard for marking students and corruption could be eliminated then you could mark all students in a particular year, line up their marks, and apply a bell curve. The above average classes would get appropriate marks.
As it stands, there is no standardization outside of the individual class. Their should be national standards, but their aren't. That's why the university ranking system is considered so important. Everyone knows that the marks are inflated. It's just a matter of which schools TEND to produce better graduates. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:07 am Post subject: |
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| maximmm wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
| I've just been asked by the English Department Office to bump a student up from D to C, despite the fact she got 10/30 for her mid-term and final tests. That was a multiple choice test and the only way to bump the grade is by adding 10%. |
No 'child' left behind!^^ |
Unfortunately "child" is a very appropriate label for most university students here. |
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motiontodismiss
Joined: 18 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:03 pm Post subject: |
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Frankly these stupid guidelines don't make any sense. I find that IME in Korea, government intervention almost always ruins things. How many of the bureaucrats involved in coming up with these arbitrary and capricious guidelines have taught a university class before? A big fat NONE.
And no college should have multiple choice finals for a language major. I remember back in my college in America they had those kinds of guidelines but no one followed them.
Anyways the government telling a professor how to grade in and of itself is unethical. And these curve things encourage unethical behavior in this country. It wouldn't be unethical if the government also had guidelines that required universities to expel anyone caught committing academic dishonesty (including but not limited to cheating and plagiarism) in the first instance but you could plagiarize the entirety of your PhD thesis and not have your degree revoked in this country, so it would only encourage the sort of throat cutting, back-stabbing behavior that frankly an institution of higher learning should frown upon.
BTW did you know some top law schools (laws schools are notorious for the curve btw) only give out Passes and Fails for the first year? And at Johns Hopkins, they only have Pass/Fail grades for freshman year.
And I still don't get why Korean colleges take attendance. The students are adults (supposedly). If they fail the final because they never came to class, so be it.
Last edited by motiontodismiss on Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:56 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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So far, only had one student contact me, asking to be moved from a B to a B+ for the sake of his scholarship. Now, I could do this because it wouldn't affect any other student's grade, and it doesn't mess with the relative grading system.....but of course I politely told him that he should have tried a little bit harder during the actual assessments, and good luck for next semester.  |
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