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soomin
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Location: Daegu
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 Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
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| If you want to be a diplomat, I'm sure you know more than I do about the process of applying at the Foreign Office. Fluent Korean will again be crucial. |
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| Have you thought about applying with the government? If you know the language, usually you can get placed in the country you want, at least, in America... I would say learning the language would be the first thing to get you into a diplomatic job |
You DO NOT NEED languages to get into the foreign office. Read my link below again
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/9194006/One-in-40-UK-diplomats-fluent-in-language-of-country-in-which-they-work.html
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My post was about jobs with the American government... your post was about the UK... Also, your post just shows that if you know the native language, you are in the top percentile of your peers. Not knowing the language is never a bragging point...
I looked into working in a government job in the States as a way to work here, and while it's not 100% necessary, you'd better have a ton of other credentials that push you past the people who know the language. It was a basic requirement for jobs I was looking at, and when going for one of those jobs where they can place you anywhere they like, if you know a foreign language, they will be more likely to place you in that country. An applicant who is fluent in French will probably be able to say, "hey~ can I go to France?" above someone who doesn't know it. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| My post was about jobs with the American government... your post was about the UK |
Yes my post was about the UK because that's where the OP is from. If he was a US citizen asking advice about becoming a US diplomat I wouldn't have posted that link. You said 'learning the language would be the first thing to get you into a diplomatic job.' It quite clearly wouldn't. |
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Modernist
Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Location: The 90s
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| Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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Ahh, such rivers of disdain for my posts. Why does it offend you all so much, hmm? Hearing the truth stings, does it? Sorry that I don't care in the slightest about your poor Korean-hearted sensibilities. You want to sink your life into this insular, ugly, xeonphobic pit, go right ahead. Better you than me.
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| i don't have a single close foreigner teacher friend here, yet i have a lot of foreigner friends here. while some were previously teachers, they all now work in the corporate and private sectors and most of them speak little to no korean. as i said before, it's all about networking. |
Really. And what do all these 'foreigner friends who work for chaebol' actually DO? Hmm? They were ESL teachers and then they went to a few parties, got drunk at the right bar, and next thing they knew they were an analyst for LG or a researcher for Hanwha? Is that how that works? Just 'network' and you're all set? I'll bet.
Or is it, that there are a few people [as I SAID the first time] who have pre-existing skills, in accountancy or management or engineering or whatever, who happen to be here while being rotated through divisions, or as a result of a merger, or because of a specific need [as you see in Ulsan, where lots of foreigners work with the shipyards]. This is a long way from 'umm, I like Korea and, uh, well, how about like an NGO or something?' People need actual SKILLS, not mushy notions built entirely around 'I want to be in country X, what can I do there?' That's not how it works. You're kidding yourself about the networking BS.
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| foreign professionals ARE very common in korea. seoul just happens to be massive and they are scattered all over. |
Delusion. Compare the professional visa numbers to S, Sh, or HK and it's NO contest. Most foreigners work for divisions of global companies, and virtually NONE of those divisions are in Korea. Market's not big enough compared to China or Japan, distance to major markets [e.g. Indonesia, India] too far compared to Singapore or Bangkok.
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| this learning Korean is vital stuff against all the facts. |
If you have no technical qualifications or skills of note, as I assume the OP does not or he/she would have mentioned them, then knowing Korean is one of the VERY FEW things you could do to make yourself notable to an employer here. A lot better than getting some meaningless IR MA.
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| I love your very negative post modernist. |
You're welcome, but I was trying to help you. If you want to stew in your outrage about what I said as an excuse to ignore it, that's up to you.
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| I know it must be difficult to comprehend the notion that an individual would want to come to a country because it made him particularly happy. I'd rather pursue a place that gave me that happiness than sit in a country and stagnate in the fact that I hate it with a passion... |
Nope, I get that. I don't get why the country in question would be HERE, though. As for me, it's the particular combination of ESL and Korea that makes me, shall we say, less than enthusiastic about living here. If I was doing a proper professional job, I could tolerate Korea better. And if I was in pleasant place, such as Shanghai, I could deal with ESL better. Bit when you make as much as I do relative to workload, and you have but 45 weeks to go, you manage.
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| I'm not saying I have to live in South Korea and that it is the be all and end all of my considerations. I like Asia a lot and having lived in certain European countries and Asian countries alike, I've decided that this area of the world is for me. |
And so why don't you tell us, then, why you want to come here? Asia's a big place. There's LOTS more opportunites in China, you know. Plenty of foreigners there making a go of it doing all sorts of things. Why do you want to come here? You're making it harder on yourself, for some reason. You can get a business visa in Cambodia for 30 bucks, the food is actually good and the women are way hotter. Malaysia has all the geographic diversity you could ever want. Thailand has developed and developing anemities side-by-side. Mongolia has mines that will turn it into Qatar East over the next decades. WHY, why, choose here for your Asian whatever? Interesting how you never mention that part, isn't it. |
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sck2012
Joined: 04 Jul 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:01 am Post subject: |
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I just don't see the relevance of me typing the reasons in which I want to move to Korea as my destination of choice. The post wasn't entitled "My top 10 reasons why I want to live and work in South Korea." This is the Korean forum, so I addressed my post in reference to Korea. As I say, I understand and appreciate the diversity and opportunities around Asia, just I wanted to gain an insight more into South Korea. On a very very basic level, I enjoyed my time in Korea, I enjoyed the atmosphere, I made some great friendships and it felt comfortable. On the other side of the coin, I do not want to live in the UK for the foreseeable future, I'm sure that plays a part in it too.
I do appreciate the advice and appreciate the fact that you speak your mind. I don't want to pay the nonsensical masters fees of the UK just to end up with an MA in IR that's not worth the paper it's written on. No, I suppose I don't have any skills that truly set me apart from the crowd, other than a few languages that is. I can see that teaching is the obvious way in, but unfortunately it's not for me. I considered the whole Masters in education route with the intention of finding a more appropriate teaching position. That being said, I would not want to invest that sort of time and money into a career path that I have already found to be unsuitable.
I'm just going through the motions really. You're right, my thoughts at the moment are pretty mushy and hazy. It's not that I want a fast-track ticket to the end result, I'm willing to put the graft in. It's just that I want to put the graft into the correct route, not to simply end up back at square one again. I've certainly had enough of that. |
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soomin
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:08 am Post subject: |
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| sck2012 wrote: |
| I just don't see the relevance of me typing the reasons in which I want to move to Korea as my destination of choice. The post wasn't entitled "My top 10 reasons why I want to live and work in South Korea." This is the Korean forum, so I addressed my post in reference to Korea. |
Well-stated~ Don't feel the need to even address ridiculous posters like Modernist... after a while on this forum you'll see more and more people ignoring him because instead of addressing the topic at hand, EVERY topic suddenly becomes "Why I Hate Korea, xoxo Modernist"
Good luck with everything and if you do find something good~ please share it ^.^ |
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wishfullthinkng
Joined: 05 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| Modernist wrote: |
| Ahh, such rivers of disdain for my posts. Why does it offend you all so much, hmm? Hearing the truth stings, does it? Sorry that I don't care in the slightest about your poor Korean-hearted sensibilities. You want to sink your life into this insular, ugly, xeonphobic pit, go right ahead. Better you than me. |
lol. your ignorance is obviously your bliss.
| Modernist wrote: |
Really. And what do all these 'foreigner friends who work for chaebol' actually DO? Hmm? They were ESL teachers and then they went to a few parties, got drunk at the right bar, and next thing they knew they were an analyst for LG or a researcher for Hanwha? Is that how that works? Just 'network' and you're all set? I'll bet.
Or is it, that there are a few people [as I SAID the first time] who have pre-existing skills, in accountancy or management or engineering or whatever, who happen to be here while being rotated through divisions, or as a result of a merger, or because of a specific need [as you see in Ulsan, where lots of foreigners work with the shipyards]. This is a long way from 'umm, I like Korea and, uh, well, how about like an NGO or something?' People need actual SKILLS, not mushy notions built entirely around 'I want to be in country X, what can I do there?' That's not how it works. You're kidding yourself about the networking BS. |
of course you have to have the right skillset to get a job. are you seriously dense enough to assume otherwise? but those with the right skillsets are more likely to get a job if they network than if they didn't. if you can really argue with that then you've got some serious life lessons to learn. your imaginary situations are just as ridiculous as your posts are. and people who "happen(ed) to be here while being rotated through divisions"? THOSE people couldn't possibly count towards people who networked and got a job obviously. did those people automatically appear from thin air?
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foreign professionals ARE very common in korea. seoul just happens to be massive and they are scattered all over.
| Modernist wrote: |
| Delusion. Compare the professional visa numbers to S, Sh, or HK and it's NO contest. Most foreigners work for divisions of global companies, and virtually NONE of those divisions are in Korea. Market's not big enough compared to China or Japan, distance to major markets [e.g. Indonesia, India] too far compared to Singapore or Bangkok. |
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oh really? i'd love for you to show me that none of these global companies have divisions in korea. because i have quite a large stack of business cards that say otherwise. also, a lot of foreigners here work for the chaebols because korea is so over-protective of their home-grown companies. comparing visa numbers to another country has nothing to do with the fact that foreign professionals ARE common in korea. however, you seem to know otherwise seeing how you're a teacher but apparently spend your nites mingling with the business crowd making you an expert on the topic right?
| Modernist wrote: |
| And so why don't you tell us, then, why you want to come here? Asia's a big place. There's LOTS more opportunites in China, you know. Plenty of foreigners there making a go of it doing all sorts of things. Why do you want to come here? You're making it harder on yourself, for some reason. You can get a business visa in Cambodia for 30 bucks, the food is actually good and the women are way hotter. Malaysia has all the geographic diversity you could ever want. Thailand has developed and developing anemities side-by-side. Mongolia has mines that will turn it into Qatar East over the next decades. WHY, why, choose here for your Asian whatever? Interesting how you never mention that part, isn't it. |
why don't you just throw in more of your own arbitrary opinions to try to dissuade this poor individual from coming here. wanna tell him he shouldn't come because you don't like the taste of kimchi? the dogs in finland are softer? or that the beaches in the maldives are better? get a grip.
again op, he makes some valid points here and there and hopefully you can tell which ones they are apart from his man-child nonsensical rantings. you've been here before, you like it enough to want to come back, you can find a job here if you really want to. don't let the trolls be unhelpful and spiteful. |
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Modernist
Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Location: The 90s
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| I just don't see the relevance of me typing the reasons in which I want to move to Korea as my destination of choice. |
Soooo....it's a woman, is it? Or a man? Thought so. Afraid I can't do much to help you with that, except strongly advise against getting romantically entangled with Koreans. Guess it's too late in your case, though.
In general, when it comes to working abroad, people should focus on the WHAT and the HOW, not the WHERE. That will come easily enough, if WHAT you can do is technically good enough or nicely specialized, and you make a reputation for yourself. Don't get your priorities messed up, or you'll end up like people in ESL, careering from one half-assed 'job' to another, furiously justifying it as 'multicultural experience' all the while.
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| EVERY topic suddenly becomes "Why I Hate Korea, xoxo Modernist" |
Flattery will get you nowhere, soomin. |
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sck2012
Joined: 04 Jul 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:43 am Post subject: |
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Yes...I have become entangled in web of Oriental romance. If only I had known you earlier Mr. Modernist, you could have put me on the right path. Oh well, hindsight is a wonderful thing! As you say, it's too late for me, my two wives in Seoul and mistress on Jeju Island are expecting me and I desperately need a non-teaching job a.s.a.p in order to get back to them! Actually, all four of us are thinking of getting an apartment, they went shopping yesterday at E-Mart for our Kimchi fridge you'll be happy to know.....
anyway...that being said, I don't just want to lurk around the world, one half-assed job to the next. In all fairness, I could see this happening with ESL teaching and that's why I decided to move on instead of linger in Korea, begin to hate the culture and become a walking ball of hate that continues to stay because of the money.
Thanks Soomin, I'll be sure to let you know if something comes my way  |
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figshdg
Joined: 01 May 2012
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:44 am Post subject: |
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| OP, it is possible to get NGO work in Korea, but you need experience and the right skill set. If you don't have those, it's largely impossible to get in to an entry level position here in that field. There are more than enough Koreans who don't need a visa. If you are interested in jobs with NGOs that require less experience, then look towards SE Asia. I know a few foreigners working in NGOs in Korea. Outwith the ones working for UN offices (and other large NGOs), they are not earning good money (most of the ones working for Korean NGOs have second jobs to help pay the bills). Every single one of those people had the right experience and the right skills to get a visa. I've been looking in to my next move after Korea. It looks like SE Asia is the place to go to get experience in the tertiary sector. |
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soomin
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:53 am Post subject: |
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| sck2012 wrote: |
Yes...I have become entangled in web of Oriental romance. If only I had known you earlier Mr. Modernist, you could have put me on the right path. Oh well, hindsight is a wonderful thing! As you say, it's too late for me, my two wives in Seoul and mistress on Jeju Island are expecting me and I desperately need a non-teaching job a.s.a.p in order to get back to them! Actually, all four of us are thinking of getting an apartment, they went shopping yesterday at E-Mart for our Kimchi fridge you'll be happy to know.....
anyway...that being said, I don't just want to lurk around the world, one half-assed job to the next. In all fairness, I could see this happening with ESL teaching and that's why I decided to move on instead of linger in Korea, begin to hate the culture and become a walking ball of hate that continues to stay because of the money.
Thanks Soomin, I'll be sure to let you know if something comes my way |
LOL! Wonderful post~~ I do hope that the four of you find happiness~ ^.^ |
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Nemo
Joined: 28 May 2006
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
most foreigners here have no idea how to get ahead because they are from small(er) towns and cities. people who are familiar with metropolitan cities like seoul, nyc, tokyo, london, etc., know that unless you are extremely lucky or born fortunate you have to network, network, network.
a few tips:
get name cards made. absolutely a must. people here (and other major cities) hand them out like candy. are you a teacher? not anymore. you are now an editor or a linguistic savant.
also, stop being a cheapskate and get out on the evening social circuit. another thing many foreigners here don't understand is that you have to spend money to make money, and it's true on a social level. even in a massive city like seoul you start to see the same influential expats at these events all the time. sitting outside the local gs25 drinking casses won't be getting you anywhere.
good luck. |
Agree with this. Get out and network. Do not expect jobs to come to you. |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:44 am Post subject: |
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You need to get over there and network.
You don't already know somebody who can get you a job, and you don't already have skills and experience that will make you marketable. Nothing wrong with that. You just don't have it (yet).
I don't think an IR or similar degree is going to make you marketable in Korea.
You're time would be better spent going over and working and meeting people and looking for opportunities - even if that means teaching for a couple of years.
You could try coming over to study in Korea and network that way. Can you live without a paycheck for 1 or 2 years? I've met a few people going that route - "studying" for a degree in IR or international business or history or something in a Korean college program who spent their focus on trying to find a non-teaching job in Korea by networking. They didn't count on their degree to mean much and didn't respect the program, but it was a way to be in Korea legally and have the time to network.
They did generate some interest among Koreans who could help them into low level, non-major corporation jobs, because they were already in Korea and showed an interest in being a real part of Korea - not just a temporary ESLer...
Learning Korean does help. I don't know why people above are dismissing it. No, it isn't necessary for many jobs that are looking for an expat. But it certainly does help. For one, it shows a committment to Korea that Koreans are impressed with. It also helps with communication here and there...
If you are interested in NGOs, you can connect with them and try to work your way in. Or someone you meet through it might know somebody who knows somebody...I've seen that happen.
In short, it is about networking once you are there.
You don't already have a job that would somehow lead to being transferred to Korea - or a background that gives you items on a CV that jobs in Korea are specifically looking for...(like former soldiers getting contractor jobs)
Expats you meet who have good jobs in Korea usually do - who got them before they came or soon after arriving.
Others got non-ESL jobs by networking. It takes time and effort...
It also depends on what your expectations are. Do you want a career-type job or one that pays the bills and allows you to remain in Korea?
"Better" career type jobs will be harder to find (if ever). They will require experience and/or skills - just like anywhere. -- Or require getting really lucky in the networking... |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:00 am Post subject: |
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Basically, finding a non-ESL job in Korea is like back home - but harder because you aren't Korean.
The number of jobs that want or are willing to hire expats is far smaller than the jobs that will hire Koreans - and that is at a time when Korean college grads can't find jobs.
That said, your being an expat will be attractive to some people here and there.
Some expats do move out of ESL industry to jobs that pay the bills. A few others eventually find "good" jobs that are part of a career.
It doesn't happen for everybody, but it does for some. Just like back home... |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Modernist wrote: |
Delusion. Compare the professional visa numbers to S, Sh, or HK and it's NO contest. Most foreigners work for divisions of global companies, and virtually NONE of those divisions are in Korea. Market's not big enough compared to China or Japan, distance to major markets [e.g. Indonesia, India] too far compared to Singapore or Bangkok.
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I actually agree with Mr. Modernist here.[Gasp!]
http://nojeokhill.koreanconsulting.com/2010/10/foreign-talent-leaving-korea-due-to-three-serious-difficulties.html
As we can see in the article above, as of 2010 there were only about 20,000 foreign professionals in Korea working outside the ESL market and that number is a decline from last year.
There are not a lot of foreign professionals here relatively speaking and many end up leaving...see the problems (in the link) for why.
And they don't have to be big problems either...one guy left complaining that s/he couldn't work at this university because English wasn't spoken fluently...(what did the idiot expect?)
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| here is the story of an Indian professor, M. Desai (photo at left), who had signed a six-year contract to work at Seoul National University but ended up leaving Korea after only nine months, complaining mostly of the difficulties of working in an environment where English is not spoken fluently. |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:38 am Post subject: |
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I didn't read all the comments...
I can agree with Modernist on a few broad points but not his overall direction. And the thinking here is similar to the article about talent leaving Korea: Much depends on what you are happy with as a job.
Since Dave's is a place for expats in Korea to call all other expats in Korea but them a bunch of burger flipping losers, I know what most readers will be thinking by now...but such is the forum...
That article is talking about professionals and much of the talk in these threads has been about corporation jobs and higher level careers.
The higher the level of job, the more you'll need a background that matches it. The right skills, experience, and/or degrees.
But that doesn't mean there aren't some opportunities outside the ESL industry, and networking is one big key to locating them.
I've heard of ESLers and former GIs moving on to jobs that were a living in Korea. Not entry level executive jobs at IBM but jobs that paid the bills in Korea and back home and allowed some savings.
Many were in publishing or something that connected in some way to the ESL industry but wasn't teaching. Or with the GIs it was in some business near a US base they had had contact with while they were soldiers.
I can think of some of the longtime expats who've commented around the K-blogs who used savings they built up in Korea to buy into a Korean small business or open their own or invest in property.
The market for jobs expats can land in Korea isn't big - whether in professions or regular non-3-D jobs. But the pool of non-ESLers with the desire and the will to do the leg work and the have the patience it takes to find one is small too.
It can be done. It will not happen for everyone who tries. But it has been done. There are examples hanging around the K-blogs... |
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