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NilesQ
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
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 Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| NilesQ wrote: |
| Hey, I'm not saying the guy's in the right. But that goes with the territory of being a foreign military operating in a soverign nation. |
You do know it's that sovereign nation that asked for the UN forces, including the US military, to be here, do you not?
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| If there were a refferendum on US military presence in SK tomorrow and I had to bet my life savings on the outcome, I 'd bet that the Korean citizenry would vote to have them leave. |
You'd likely lose your life savings, then.
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| That is just my impression after living in SK for 5 years. On the whole, I got the impression that the average SK citizen's attitude toward the US Army still being in Korea was negative. |
You seem to be basing your opinion on just what little you've encountered in your immediate area.
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| If there was a war with the north, it would be the ROK boys sent head first into it. |
You do not know what you're talking about.
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| If peaceful unification is the goal, US persence on the peninsula ensures that won't happen. |
Again, you have no idea of what you're talking about. |
I'm well aware of the UN force and monitoring system in place. The USFK isn't a part of that structure. The Republic of Korea - United States Combined Forces Command is seperate of the UN command and answers to their respective governments. The reality has changed greatly since 1953 when it was formed. The US was seen as a great liberating force, which it was at the time. Why they are still here 60 years later is more about American intrest than Korean. The enemy is weakened by famine, lack of domestic arms industry, and diplomatic isolation. I never said USA were here illegally. However, they have a history of not leaving - Japan, Korea, Germany. Is USA protecting Germany from something? The USA serves its strategic interests first. Any other representation of their presence is a falsehood. I always found it funny how Korean politicians drum up anti American sentiment during elections, then sit back happy to have USA subsidize their defense budget, but have created an electorate that is worked up about American troops here.
Like I said, that bet was based on my opinion. You are welcome to your own. My experience has been different than yours I guess.
I don't know what I'm talking about? Why did the US help ROK set up a 650,000 man strong active army with millions of reservists? So the US could come fight for them? If a land war broke out, the 30,000(I think it's less now) US troops would be a small part of the fighting force. That job would fall to the Koreans. They are a well trained and equiped military. The US made sure of that. |
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K1020
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_international/541655.html
This incident, at least initially had little to do with any particular dislike for military presence. This guy was the owner of a guitar shop on a very popular commercial strip directly outside of the base; a very international area fueled by military personnel's recreational spending. He was not interfering with any military activity, this became a problem because town patrol, not just some random soldiers, clearly overstepped their mandate. The reason there is a military town patrol in Sinchang is to, and only to, police military personnel so as to prevent or deal with anything happening that would require Korean police intervene ie. fights, soldiers buying sex, curfew ect. Military would much prefer to deal with their own rather than have Korean justice sort out delinquent personnel.
Generally, unless called, the police give this area a wide birth however last night, for a time, Korean police and town patrol were doing their rounds together which is unusual to say the least. I imagine it is a temporary sign of co-operation to reinforce town patrol's right to be there. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="NilesQ"] I always found it funny how Korean politicians drum up anti American sentiment during elections, then sit back happy to have USA subsidize their defense budget, but have created an electorate that is worked up about American troops here. [quote]
Like I said, that bet was based on my opinion. You are welcome to your own. My experience has been different than yours I guess.
I don't know what I'm talking about? Why did the US help ROK set up a 650,000 man strong active army with millions of reservists? So the US could come fight for them? If a land war broke out, the 30,000(I think it's less now) US troops would be a small part of the fighting force. quote]
The anti-American rhetoric is stirred up by the leftist of this country and its just another excuse to bash their political opponents. If US troops started packing up their bags right now, Koreans would beg them not to leave.
Personally, I don't think American troops should be here on principle, but as someone who would be forced to fight if the Norks attack, I'm glad they're here.
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| That job would fall to the Koreans. They are a well trained and equiped military. |
Eh..not really. I guess it depends on how you define well trained and equipped. We're probably a lot better off than the North Koreans though. Compared to the US, no. The US 2nd Division has three times the firepower of one ROK Army Division. The US forces also augment a lot of our tank-killing capabilities, which for some reason, the Korean military relatively lacks.
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| By "locals" I mean the people who see the presence as an occupation, and are motivated by it to attack American interests at home and abroad. |
This isn't the middle east man. Koreans aren't that anti-american. |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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I'm tired of some of the disrespectful arguments I've read here. Like:
The US shouldn't be in Korea etc. They are in Korea. We all walk around every day in relative peace but it's really war. Nothing was ever truly decided between the US, Russia, and China.
If the US leaves Korea, China comes in. That's not just hearsay, that's a fact. Only deluded people, and propaganda from mainland China will tell you otherwise.
It sickens me to see some US general guy having to bow because a Korean shop owner was being a d-bag.
And I'm all for freedom of speech and being able to record someone with your camera, but those Korean guys including a few K-bitches. (Korean women would have no rights without US influence. They have few anyway) getting right up in the face of the military police makes me cringe. If they got knocked out on the pavement, they'd deserve it.
If people want to lose their right to record injustice, that's the way to do it. Being a dick getting up in peoples faces like that. Those guys were just trying to do their jobs - and I don't like a lot of G.I's
If those Korean people (apparently some of them were gyopos) have an agenda, getting the US out of Korea - as I suspect many of them have - and some of them are part of the endless Chinese immigrant stream anyway - then they are siding with China.
This whole world is a mess. I believe deep down that people in Korea and Japan see the US having bases here as an occupation and maybe they're right. But if these people think they will ever not be occupied, they are deluding themselves. We don't live in that world. If it ever gets to the point that Korea is occupying it's own country solely then they are occupying other countries too. That's how it works - whether militarily, economically, or politically, there is no escaping a big brother in this world of some kind, because it's a global playing field now, and has been for some time.
If those were Chinese military police, they could have raped those women. Lets not forget the comfort women Japan had for themselves when they occupied Korea and China.
Last edited by pegasus64128 on Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:33 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| NilesQ wrote: |
| If there were a refferendum on US military presence in SK tomorrow and I had to bet my life savings on the outcome, I 'd bet that the Korean citizenry would vote to have them leave. That is just my impression after living in SK for 5 years. On the whole, I got the impression that the average SK citizen's attitude toward the US Army still being in Korea was negative. |
I wouldn't be too sure about the results. There is a silent chunk of the population that doesn't go out protesting on every new anti-American issue. I think it would be virtually a 50/50 split, if everyone eligible voter voted. |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| pegasus64128 wrote: |
| If the US leaves Korea, China comes in. That's not just hearsay, that's a fact. Only deluded people, and propaganda from mainland China will tell you otherwise. |
The Chinese know their history, and they will not send troops outright into any part of Korea. They could easily enter NK, but why haven't they? They know the population would be hostile to them and it just wouldn't look good worldwide.
But China will expect Korea to bow to them, as historically most of Asia has. In this modern world it means economically, instead of sending concubines and eunuchs. |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 4:48 pm Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| NilesQ wrote: |
| If there were a refferendum on US military presence in SK tomorrow and I had to bet my life savings on the outcome, I 'd bet that the Korean citizenry would vote to have them leave. That is just my impression after living in SK for 5 years. On the whole, I got the impression that the average SK citizen's attitude toward the US Army still being in Korea was negative. |
I wouldn't be too sure about the results. There is a silent chunk of the population that doesn't go out protesting on every new anti-American issue. I think it would be virtually a 50/50 split, if everyone eligible voter voted. |
You mean the silent chunk of women that don't want to end up being Chinese comfort women, or the silent men that don't plan on being conscripts for the "Peoples" (Maos's Red) army, and their next glorious endeavor - Philippines maybe.
| jvalmer wrote: |
But China will expect Korea to bow to them, as historically most of Asia has. In this modern world it means economically, instead of sending concubines and eunuchs. |
And they will bow. Because China means business. Ask any Tibetan.
EDIT: Anyway, I want nothing more to do with this story. It all sickens me.
I wish humans were incapable of developing technology of any kind sometimes. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| pegasus64128 wrote: |
This whole world is a mess. I believe deep down that people in Korea and Japan see the US having bases here as an occupation and maybe they're right. But if these people think they will ever not be occupied, they are deluding themselves. We don't live in that world. If it ever gets to the point that Korea is occupying it's own country solely then they are occupying other countries too. That's how it works - whether militarily, economically, or politically, there is no escaping a big brother in this world of some kind, because it's a global playing field now, and has been for some time.
If those were Chinese military police, they'd have raped those women. Lets not forget the comfort women Japan had for themselves when they occupied Korea and China. |
I like the dose of realism, but you laid it on a bit too thick and went a bit too far with the Sinophobia. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| NilesQ wrote: |
Like I said, that bet was based on my opinion. You are welcome to your own. My experience has been different than yours I guess.
. |
Since polls consistently show an overall majority of Koreans support the U.S troop presence your opinion is in contradiction of the facts.
Here's just one of them from 2006
http://www.gallup.com/poll/24679/gallup-world-poll-south-koreas-political-dilemma.aspx
| Quote: |
| According to recent Gallup World Poll data, only about 26% of South Koreans say the U.S. should withdraw from Korea as soon as possible, while 71% say that U.S. troops should remain. |
Here's a more recent one from 2010 (poll date not the article).
http://asiafoundation.org/resources/pdfs/MoonPubilcOpinion.pdf
| Quote: |
One interesting finding in the AIPS survey is the level of support shown for the ROK-U.S.
alliance among different groups within South Korea. Among those who had an unfavorable
opinion of the United States, 72 percent still thought it was necessary for the alliance to
Center for U.S.-Korea Policy February 2011
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continue, compared to 87 percent of those with a neutral perspective toward the United States
and 92 percent of those with favorable attitudes toward the United States |
As we see overwhelmingly large numbers of Koreans (even those who DON'T have a favorable opinion of the US) support the alliance and the troop presence here.
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:26 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| pegasus64128 wrote: |
This whole world is a mess. I believe deep down that people in Korea and Japan see the US having bases here as an occupation and maybe they're right. But if these people think they will ever not be occupied, they are deluding themselves. We don't live in that world. If it ever gets to the point that Korea is occupying it's own country solely then they are occupying other countries too. That's how it works - whether militarily, economically, or politically, there is no escaping a big brother in this world of some kind, because it's a global playing field now, and has been for some time.
If those were Chinese military police, they'd have raped those women. Lets not forget the comfort women Japan had for themselves when they occupied Korea and China. |
I like the dose of realism, but you laid it on a bit too thick and went a bit too far with the Sinophobia. |
True.
I'm not the biggest fan in the world of single party Leninist-Marxist states. Communist dictatorship is as far right as it gets in real terms.
Also, it scares my whitie genes that Chinese people could be ruling over me - not out of any xenophopbia but because they are a less racially tolerant society. I think whities could become extinct if China became the big Daddy!
Or they might utilize some kind of ranking system and decide only German people are worthy to live - that's the kind of thinking that persists over there. Creeps me out.
Just how I feel. Nothing I can do about it so I may as well not care. |
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K1020
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| pegasus64128 wrote: |
I'm tired of some of the disrespectful arguments. . .
It sickens me to see some US general guy having to bow because a Korean shop owner was being a d-bag.
And I'm all for freedom of speech and being able to record someone with your camera, but those Korean guys including a few K-bitches. (Korean women would have no rights without US influence. They have few anyway) getting right up in the face of the military police makes me cringe. If they got knocked out on the pavement, they'd deserve it. |
First, Town Patrol completely overstepped its mandate which is why people were protesting their actions, and why the USFK commander apologized. They were right to do it.
Second, using such a misogynist term in a statement concerned with women's rights comes off as uniquely colonialist.
Third, the whole point of Town Patrol is to catch delinquent soldiers before the Korean police do; not to police the Shinchang district. The history of western imperialism or why America operates bases here is generally inconsequential to this incident, so to is the guys attitude towards Town Patrol. T.P. has no jurisdiction regarding non-military personnel and it is a credit to the generally smooth operations around K-55 that they have not been charged formally. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Pegasus continues to fly on wings of hyperbole. |
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pegasus64128
Joined: 20 Aug 2011
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| Pegasus continues to fly on wings of hyperbole. |
Here's some hyperbole for ya:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcAaertdaQk&t=21
Something more lighthearted.
I have no idea who's really the d!*k or the a-hole in all of this. I'm just a plebeian in the great scheme of things, like most or all of you I suspect. |
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catman
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| If South Koreans wanted the US out then they would vote for politicians who want them out as well. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| The US forces also augment a lot of our tank-killing capabilities, which for some reason, the Korean military relatively lacks. |
Are you talking about the relatively archaic state of the ROK's Attack Helicopter force and ground attack aircraft? Or specialized Light Armored Vehicles specialized in Anti-Tank roles and the like?
I've noticed that too when looking through Orders of Battle and equipment lists
One of my friends worked as a KATUSA and worked on Cobras he said the Americans were pretty touchy about the Apaches and said that there were concerns over ROK access. Course this was about 5-6 years ago and things may have changed...
I agree that anyone who doesn't want the might of the US military handy in case a regime the country is technically at war with decides to do some funny business is a moron. A brothel base town and occasional incidents are a small price to pay for massive US firepower.
That being said, as an American I see no reason for our troops to be here. This war is theirs. Let them fight it out themselves. I don't think KJE is going to lead some Communist/Chinesesist domino wave across Asia. The ROK armed forces should be sufficient to win any war that breaks out. And if you need a "tripwire force" or a bunch of aircraft ready to bomb the legions, that could be had with far less of a footprint. I'm not a total isolationist, but ground troops beyond maybe a 2,500 MEU or some trainers and advisors? Pfft.
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