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Lolimahro
Joined: 19 May 2009
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 Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:26 pm Post subject: Is this contract change legal? |
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I work at a religious school, where I have been for 2 years. Things haven't been superfantastic but good enough (the pay is decent, 4 weeks of vacation, awesome co-workers). I'm due to have a baby in 2.5 weeks and I need to renew my contract in order to get full maternity leave.
However, I have just been informed that the senior pastor of the church is going to add a line to the contract forcing all teachers at the school to attend the church. Is that even legal? Can he actually make me attend or not allow me to work here? If I signed the contract but just didn't attend the church, could they legally fire me for it?
If I wasn't going to have a baby this month (my contract is up in August) then I would just find a new job. If it matters, I'm only renewing for 6 months anyway.
Anyone who knows whether they can really make me do this legally or not - thanks in advance for your input. |
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JustinC
Joined: 10 Mar 2012
Location: We Are The World!
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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Warning; this totally has nothing to do with the OP's specific question -
What's wrong with attending the church for 6 months? Unless he's wanting more than you show your face on Sundays and contribute a little of your time, it sounds doable. You'll have a newborn so it's not exactly like they'll be wanting you to spend too much time away from it. I very much doubt you're going to be able to get a job elsewhere any time soon so just suck it up and sing a few hymns. |
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andrewchon
Joined: 16 Nov 2008
Location: Back in Oz. Living in ISIS Aust.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Disclaimer: I am not an expert in Constitutional law or even a lawyer
As far as I can remember, the U.S. Supreme Court's opinion was that Freedom of reliegion doesn't give you the freedom from reliegion. i.e. Jehovah's witness come knocking on your door maybe annoying but is not an illegal act. You are also free to give the said Jehovah's a piece of your mind and tell 'em go and get lost. However, we don't. We politely listen to their message of good news and say "no, thank you". Hence, if the church service is during your school time, then the school can induce your commitment to the school's Esprit de corp as much as they can.
sorry, must cut short. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| I can't answer your question, but maybe you could also inquire about whether you'd have to attend church while you're on maternity leave. If not, then it's a mute point. |
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Lolimahro
Joined: 19 May 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:12 am Post subject: |
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They want me to attend church on Sunday, every Sunday, and be an active member of the church. (Free Bible studies led by foreign teachers, anyone?)
I have attended the church attached to my school before. I left because they kept volunteering me to do things like teach English Sunday School (to kids I already teach 5 days a week). I'm not getting paid any extra to do it. They expected me to do a prayer meeting before service (10 am to 11am), then attend the English service (11am to 12pm) have lunch together, and then have bible study afterwards. Then there was the English Sunday school from 2:00-3:00. So I was there from 10:00-3:00, unable to spend time with or socialize with my family (had to put my kid in the preschool room, and then send him home with his dad after lunch), had to spend extra time outside of work preparing for the Sunday School lessons, etc. It was a real drag, and I expect this time around to be no different.
I will not be going on my maternity leave. There is no way the school can ask me to do anything like that during my leave, as far as I know (but I will be looking into it).
I am an active churchgoer (or trying to be, since my job is fairly exhausting) and already attend services at another church where I feel comfortable and welcome, where I can spend time with my family and friends on the weekend, and get a break from my students and my work. Attending services on Sundays would feel incredibly like working an extra day of the week for free. I know this because I used to live there (there are apartments in the church building) and I felt like I was *always* at work.
I guess it was a silly question; I have a choice not to renew my contract, but there's only 4 weeks left of it and I have to make a decision. I just feel like the board chairman of the school (also senior pastor of the church) is trying to control every single aspect of the employees' lives.
Anyway, thanks for the input. Sorry to be such a downer... |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Tell them that you'd like to renew, but you will have a newborn infant at home and you will not be able to attend church for the first 6 months since you MUST spend time with your newborn.
Make this non-negotiable and have that clause removed from your contract.
Newborns and new moms need time at home. That's it. They should understand. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| I can't answer your question, but maybe you could also inquire about whether you'd have to attend church while you're on maternity leave. If not, then it's a mute point. |
"Moot" not mute. A moot point is of no legal significance but merely academic.
At one time I attended church services in the local Quaker meetinghouse. Many attendees sat in the pews, but no one spoke, there was no minister. Everyone sat in complete silence and then they went home. This is really not related to the OP, I just wanted to make a mute point. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| I can't answer your question, but maybe you could also inquire about whether you'd have to attend church while you're on maternity leave. If not, then it's a mute point. |
"Moot" not mute. A moot point is of no legal significance but merely academic.
At one time I attended church services in the local Quaker meetinghouse. Many attendees sat in the pews, but no one spoke, there was no minister. Everyone sat in complete silence and then they went home. This is really not related to the OP, I just wanted to make a mute point. |
Wow. You're so smart. I bet you even have one of those books with all the definitions in it. I feel ashamed that I accidentally wrote the wrong word on an internet forum. I truly hope that people are able to figure out what I actually wanted to say. |
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luckylady
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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you'd really have to ask a Korean lawyer whether or not the clause is legal. I doubt anyone on here can tell you for sure.
that being said, it does cross a lot of lines especially since you say you are already a member of another church. it also reeks of free labor/exploitation of the NETs, as you already mentioned.
you don't need this kind of aggravation right now. just explain your responsibility is towards your family first, period.
if they don't remove the clause, just draw a line through the parts you don't like, initial next to it and sign the contract, then hand it back to them. they'll either accept it or they won't.
to save face for them, explain as above about your family. keep the focus there. if you can, get one of the mothers on your side to support you, I would bet they would in a heartbeat.
let us know what happens, and good luck and many blessings for your upcoming new arrival  |
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treehouse
Joined: 17 Jul 2010
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| I can't answer your question, but maybe you could also inquire about whether you'd have to attend church while you're on maternity leave. If not, then it's a mute point. |
"Moot" not mute. A moot point is of no legal significance but merely academic.
At one time I attended church services in the local Quaker meetinghouse. Many attendees sat in the pews, but no one spoke, there was no minister. Everyone sat in complete silence and then they went home. This is really not related to the OP, I just wanted to make a mute point. |
Wow. You're so smart. I bet you even have one of those books with all the definitions in it. I feel ashamed that I accidentally wrote the wrong word on an internet forum. I truly hope that people are able to figure out what I actually wanted to say. |
You learned something new. No need for the defensive attitude. Learn from from your mistakes with grace, otherwise you just embarrass yourself (see above). |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:45 am Post subject: |
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| Anyone who knows whether they can really make me do this legally or not - thanks in advance for your input. |
I would go and see how it is. When it gets old and you are tired of it, tell them. One thing they like to do is say, "Well, since you have been coming to church, that means you are Christian."
After that, just don't go. I would rather be fired and get another school than continue something I didn't like.
One thing you can try is to bring things that they like to church and occupy your time with that. I would regularly bring Korean study books or prepare lessons while I attended my Korean girlfriend's church. At lunch break, I would skip out and not return until the last 10 minutes of service 
They probably didn't know I was away. If it is a big church, that is better.
Think about it, if your family member wanted you to go to church, would you? I would. The breaking point is when they want you to convert, and any entrance door works just as well as an exit. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| treehouse wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| I can't answer your question, but maybe you could also inquire about whether you'd have to attend church while you're on maternity leave. If not, then it's a mute point. |
"Moot" not mute. A moot point is of no legal significance but merely academic.
At one time I attended church services in the local Quaker meetinghouse. Many attendees sat in the pews, but no one spoke, there was no minister. Everyone sat in complete silence and then they went home. This is really not related to the OP, I just wanted to make a mute point. |
Wow. You're so smart. I bet you even have one of those books with all the definitions in it. I feel ashamed that I accidentally wrote the wrong word on an internet forum. I truly hope that people are able to figure out what I actually wanted to say. |
You learned something new. No need for the defensive attitude. Learn from from your mistakes with grace, otherwise you just embarrass yourself (see above). |
Thanks, but I already knew the difference between moot and mute. I was tired and wasn't paying attention when I wrote it. I generally doesn't feel the need to proof read me forum posts for spelling erors and homomins. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
After that, just don't go. I would rather be fired and get another school than continue something I didn't like.
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So you're recommending that she give up her job benefits while she's on maternity leave? More importantly, do you think that another school WOULD hire her if she's pregnant and going to be going on maternity leave soon?
Anyway, Article 72 of the LSA says that the employer has to give maternity leave, so I don't see how they could fire her for not going to church for for not doing anything else in the contract while she's on leave. After the maternity leave is up, then she might as well find a new job if she wants to keep working. If she's married then she can get a visa through her husband, AND she'll be covered by his health insurance (if his school enrolled him in national health insurance). |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| So you're recommending that she give up her job benefits while she's on maternity leave? |
Is that what I recommended?
My words = "I would go and see how it is."
My words = "I would rather be fired and get another school than continue something I didn't like."
Does the above sound like I said to do something while on maternity leave? The answer I was going by was no. If you have a convoluted reason why someone would, that is your rationale. I was recommending they go ahead and "see how it is."
"see how it is" implies to me that you wouldn't be on any kind of leave.
NEXT......
| Quote: |
| More importantly, do you think that another school WOULD hire her if she's pregnant and going to be going on maternity leave soon? |
That's a red herring. She was posting about staying with the same school.
More importantly,
WOULD she be seeking another school if she was pregnant and about to give birth?
| Quote: |
| employer has to give maternity leave, so I don't see how they could fire her for not going to church for for not doing anything else in the contract while she's on leave |
The employer can fire someone for any other reason, it doesn't have to be because of the maternity leave (even though it might actually be). They can just make up a reason. Hagwon tactics 101.
Read up Troglodyte.
NEXT...... |
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Lolimahro
Joined: 19 May 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:28 am Post subject: |
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Okay, update - it's not in the contract. But it is "strongly recommended" that I go. There was even a meeting today with the senior pastor urging all teachers to attend.
So I guess it's not like they can fire me for not going as it's not in the contract. But I suppose they could make a big deal about it and pressure me or continuously to join or whatever. Anyway, I'm not worried about losing my job over this any more (unless things change tomorrow...which they always could, I guess!). At least now I have a definite understanding of what the church expects of the staff and their relationship to the church and I can make a decision at the end of the school year after my contract extension is up.
Thanks for all your input! |
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