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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| pegasus64128 wrote: |
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This mentality is the problem. How is suggesting that the USA shouldn't be maintaining a large military presence in another country disrespectful?
You're with us or you're with them! Forget logic. Forget opportunity cost of resources. It is disrespectful to disagree.
And to those who bring up polls about Korean opinion of the alliance with the US, being allied with and having large military presence on your soil are not necessarily one in the same. You can be allies without having them maintain a large presence on the ground. It isn't those 30,000 troops that keep the North and China fromm coming over the wall. It is the knowledge that the Korean alliance with the US and the rest of the western world would ensure a massive war afterward.
The question that should be posed is a clear "Do you think that the USA should still have several military bases and 30,000 troops in Korea today?" I think most would say no. There is certainly an age divide on this. People old enough to remember the Korean war are much more pro american presence. However, the younger generations, those born after the cease-fire, seem to view the US Army as an occupier rather than a liberator. Again, just my experience gained through conversations I've had with Koreans during the 5 years I spent there. Those were the Sunshine Policy years of Kim Dae Jung also. |
I don't think the US military should be here in such large numbers, but that's not the point. The point, as I already stated is that they are here, at the permission of the Korean government. While the military police may have been out of line, those people were also out of line in antagonizing them and being disrespectful. It's also a joke that they are not in more plain attire. How are they supposed to ignore the disrespect when they're wearing their uniforms.
Some Korean people, like their Western counterparts, don't seem to understand the fact that the 2 Koreas are still technically at war. Most if not all of them woke up to this fact after the naval bombardment episode if not the sinking of the Cheonan. You unfortunately have not... |
I assume you'd hold the same view if some K-Cops witnessed something mildly dysfunctional on a US Base, like an improperly parked truck dropping off equipment, walked over and started arresting US soldiers on the US base, and some GIs started shoving the KCops and getting agitated, right? |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| pegasus64128 wrote: |
| I don't think the US military should be here in such large numbers, but that's not the point. The point, as I already stated is that they are here, at the permission of the Korean government. While the military police may have been out of line, those people were also out of line in antagonizing them and being disrespectful. |
You have no idea what I would do to a foreign military force were it to be stationed in the U.S., even if my government told me they were "for my protection". How could a true patriot respect foreign troops on his or her own land? I would make the continued presence of foreign troops untenable by whatever means necessary. And if that resulted in a threat to my country's national security in the future, then bring them on.
Liberty or death. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 11:53 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| comm wrote: |
| pegasus64128 wrote: |
| I don't think the US military should be here in such large numbers, but that's not the point. The point, as I already stated is that they are here, at the permission of the Korean government. While the military police may have been out of line, those people were also out of line in antagonizing them and being disrespectful. |
You have no idea what I would do to a foreign military force were it to be stationed in the U.S., even if my government told me they were "for my protection". How could a true patriot respect foreign troops on his or her own land? I would make the continued presence of foreign troops untenable by whatever means necessary. And if that resulted in a threat to my country's national security in the future, then bring them on.
Liberty or death. |
I assume you probably wouldn't do much. Perhaps vote or sign a protest. What would you grab a gun and start shooting because to help out ol America, Canada stationed 20,000 soldiers in Pensacola?
Also if it ever got to the point where America needed foreign troops it would mean America was in the fight of its life and needed all the allies it could get.
So if you were British you would have started chucking Molotovs at the U.S. 8th Air Force in WWII?
If you were German, post WWII you would have tried to kick out the Americans and take your chances alone against the Warsaw Pact with a feeble government?
If you were German now, you'd kick out the Americans and re-militarize and totally destabilize Europe given its historical animuses?
Frankly this sounds like the opinion of someone who thinks war is some kind of picnic.
Also, I find it rather odd for an American to holler about no "occupying armies". America fought a war against an occupying army. Half of it lost and was occupied. It paid for its desire to not be occupied with the destruction of many of its major cities and the death of 1/4 of its military-aged male population. If those anti-occupation forces had won, it would have meant years and years of future war and a complete balkanization of the United States. It would have been a disaster to the theory of democracy and would have meant the continued racial enslavement of 3.5 million people and their descendants.
Agitating for war, simply for agitation's sake is a recipe for both political and military disaster. It would be going to war first, and then seeking to win. |
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K1020
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:47 am Post subject: |
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http://english.hani.co.kr/arti/english_edition/e_international/542031.html
US soldiers weren�t authorized to handcuff Korean civilians
By Kim Gi-seong, South Gyeonggi province correspondent
According to accounts from the Pyeongtaek Police Station and city officials on July 10, USFK military police (MPs) armed with guns roughly subdued and handcuffed civilians after an altercation over a parking violation on Rodeo Road in front of the Osan Air Base (K-55) base at around 8:15 pm on July 5.
The MPs in question claimed that they were legitimately performing their duties in restraining the three individuals and dragging them toward the nearby Air Force base. They told police they had handcuffed the individuals and taken them to the entrance of the base because they perceived a threat in their behavior.
But police obtained mobile phone video footage of the incident that showed the threatening behavior actually came from the armed MPs, who were seen violently shoving one civilian in the chest as he protested.
The MPs have no jurisdiction to enforce parking regulations. Authority for handling parking infractions in the municipality rests solely with the local police or officials at Pyeongtaek City Hall.
An official with the city�s transportation administration division said, �This kind of demand or crackdown is clearly overstepping their authority.�
Evidence also indicated false statements from the MPs. They claimed they had told one of the civilians, a Mr. Yang, that they had called the local police, but it was confirmed that the police were actually summoned after four citizen emergency phone calls to between 8:35 and 8:36. The request did not actually come from USFK.
The police also dropped the ball in investigating the facts. On Monday, they said that the MPs had turned over the civilians after taking them to the base entrance, about 150 meters from where the incident began, at the request of a police officer at the scene who was worried about the situation escalating. Critics have lambasted the tepid response from the national police, accusing them of flailing helplessly after the fact instead of taking decisive action.
But an official with the Pyeongtaek Police Station told the Hankyoreh on Tuesday that the National Police Agency (NPA) announcement was inaccurate. �The US soldiers ignored the police�s orders to remove the handcuffs and just talked among themselves before taking the civilians off to the base entrance,� the official said. �The police followed behind them, repeatedly demanding that they take off the handcuffs.�
This conflicting account came on the heels of remarks the same day by NPA commissioner Kim Ki-yong that seemed to side with the MPs. �Even if US soldiers are taking a South Korean national by force, it�s not something where you can immediately determine if it is illegal�, Kim said.
Police examined the scene and questioned witnesses Tuesday to determine the facts of the incident. They currently plan to closely examine some three to four mobile phone videos taken by citizens and call the MPs and other parties involved in the incident for further questioning. |
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NilesQ
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:02 am Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| geldedgoat wrote: |
| NilesQ wrote: |
| ■In a war between the United States and North Korea, whose side would you take? North Korea, 65.9%; United States, 21.8%; undecided, 12.3%. |
Assuming the question is translated accurately, this is not the same as what you were claiming, not even close. |
Which is why I qualified it with:
"However, the fact that they got a significant percentage of respondants to say they'd side with the North over the US leads me to believe that thinking the USA shouldn't be here but still maintain the alliance wouldnt be a stretch." |
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| NilesQ wrote: |
| geldedgoat wrote: |
| NilesQ wrote: |
| ■In a war between the United States and North Korea, whose side would you take? North Korea, 65.9%; United States, 21.8%; undecided, 12.3%. |
Assuming the question is translated accurately, this is not the same as what you were claiming, not even close. |
Which is why I qualified it with:
"However, the fact that they got a significant percentage of respondants to say they'd side with the North over the US leads me to believe that thinking the USA shouldn't be here but still maintain the alliance wouldnt be a stretch." |
If asked whether I'd prefer a warm, tender pork tenderloin biscuit or a hot, oven baked, NY pizza right now, I'd pick the biscuit in a heartbeat. Does that mean I hate NY Pizza? No.
In the same light, that poll doesn't show whether or not Koreans like the US, but rather that Koreans would side with NK over US (relative vs absolute). My grandfather had a brother who he was seperated from during the Korean war, so I have a slight understanding of the position some Koreans hold. NK is like an estranged brother - regardless of his behavior or actions, he's still blood... |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:02 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| sml7285 wrote: |
NK is like an estranged brother - regardless of his behavior or actions, he's still blood... |
Thankfully that mentality doesn't hold true for many conservatives. You're brother stops being your brother when he rolls tanks over your home and shoots you. American soldiers are more of a "brother" to Korea than the Norks. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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K1020, thanks for he info... But boy, do I wish it was from a source other than the Hanky.  |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 4:26 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
[q
I assume you'd hold the same view if some K-Cops witnessed something mildly dysfunctional on a US Base, like an improperly parked truck dropping off equipment, walked over and started arresting US soldiers on the US base, and some GIs started shoving the KCops and getting agitated, right? |
Except that would never happen because "K-Cops" wouldn't be allowed to just walk on over onto a U.S military base in the first place.
You do know they do have armed guards on duty who would stop them and demand that they produce authorization for their visit? You can't just drive or walk onto a military base even if you are police. |
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K1020
Joined: 20 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
[q
I assume you'd hold the same view if some K-Cops witnessed something mildly dysfunctional on a US Base, like an improperly parked truck dropping off equipment, walked over and started arresting US soldiers on the US base, and some GIs started shoving the KCops and getting agitated, right? |
Except that would never happen because "K-Cops" wouldn't be allowed to just walk on over onto a U.S military base in the first place.
You do know they do have armed guards on duty who would stop them and demand that they produce authorization for their visit? You can't just drive or walk onto a military base even if you are police. |
Then what about Korean MPs. they do share the space and to a similar limited extent, stewardship of it. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| True. All the gates I've ever gone through were manned by (apparent?) Korean nationals. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
I assume you probably wouldn't do much. Perhaps vote or sign a protest. What would you grab a gun and start shooting because to help out ol America, Canada stationed 20,000 soldiers in Pensacola?
Also if it ever got to the point where America needed foreign troops it would mean America was in the fight of its life and needed all the allies it could get. |
You mean the way that Germany is currently in "the fight of its life" and needs American military bases? Or Saudi Arabia? Or Yemen? Or UAE? Or Italy? Or Japan? Or Spain? Or Brazil? Is there a legitimate threat of foreign invasion that domestic military forces can't handle that actually justifies Canadian troops in Florida? Could you say that is the case for any of the places where U.S. forces are stationed listed above?
I'm not saying that I'd rather be enslaved by an invading army than take help from allied troops. I AM saying that foreign troops on my country's soil in peacetime (or as close as it gets, as in South Korea) is unacceptable and worthy of civil disobedience or worse.
And yes. Though I'd gladly kill an American slaver with joy in my heart, I'd also defend the land and lives of innocent American farmers from invading troops, American or otherwise. |
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:00 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| comm wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
I assume you probably wouldn't do much. Perhaps vote or sign a protest. What would you grab a gun and start shooting because to help out ol America, Canada stationed 20,000 soldiers in Pensacola?
Also if it ever got to the point where America needed foreign troops it would mean America was in the fight of its life and needed all the allies it could get. |
You mean the way that Germany is currently in "the fight of its life" and needs American military bases? Or Saudi Arabia? Or Yemen? Or UAE? Or Italy? Or Japan? Or Spain? Or Brazil? Is there a legitimate threat of foreign invasion that domestic military forces can't handle that actually justifies Canadian troops in Florida? Could you say that is the case for any of the places where U.S. forces are stationed listed above?
I'm not saying that I'd rather be enslaved by an invading army than take help from allied troops. I AM saying that foreign troops on my country's soil in peacetime (or as close as it gets, as in South Korea) is unacceptable and worthy of civil disobedience or worse.
And yes. Though I'd gladly kill an American slaver with joy in my heart, I'd also defend the land and lives of innocent American farmers from invading troops, American or otherwise. |
And all the good ole' boys were going to ship off to Europe and end the war by Christmas, 1942.
Here's the thing. You're talking about a hypothetical situation. As far as I know, you have no military training or experience. Even some heavily trained soldiers will freeze in combat zones and break down. What makes you think you are not susceptible to the human instinct to survive? |
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: U.S. Military Illegally Arresting Korean Nationals |
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| fermentation wrote: |
| sml7285 wrote: |
NK is like an estranged brother - regardless of his behavior or actions, he's still blood... |
Thankfully that mentality doesn't hold true for many conservatives. You're brother stops being your brother when he rolls tanks over your home and shoots you. American soldiers are more of a "brother" to Korea than the Norks. |
Agreed. A professor of mine once told me a quote that rings true here: "friends are the family that you choose." Still, I get where some people are coming from, though I don't agree. Blood is shared between the two countries. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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| You mean the way that Germany is currently in "the fight of its life" and needs American military bases? |
I was talking about America. America has unique conditions. What is appropriate for America is not necessarily the same for S.Korea or Germany or anywhere else.
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| Or Saudi Arabia? Or Yemen? Or UAE? Or Italy? Or Japan? Or Spain? Or Brazil? |
In the case of Germany and Japan, we have troops there to prevent an arms race and because of the historical suspicion both nations are regarded with in terms of war. In terms of "our" safety, this is probably best for "us".
Saudi Arabia and the UAE would certainly be in a different position if the US hadn't lifted a finger over Kuwait in 1991. And yes, we need their oil. It is vital to our security. Without it, the economy goes belly up and you have a security risk at home. So as far as threat of invasion, certainly. You're talking about the MidEast.
Now as for Korea, you may claim that what's going on here is "close to peacetime". I'll disagree. Normal nations do not mass hundreds of thousands of troops along their border and have a no man's land between them.
| Quote: |
| Is there a legitimate threat of foreign invasion that domestic military forces can't handle that actually justifies Canadian troops in Florida? |
Hey if the Canadian Coast Guard was cheaper and more effective than the U.S. Coast Guard and we wanted them to operate in Florida, why not? Subcontract it out.
| Quote: |
| I AM saying that foreign troops on my country's soil in peacetime (or as close as it gets, as in South Korea) is unacceptable and worthy of civil disobedience or worse. |
Why? What are they doing that is so heinous beyond their presence? Are they failing to provide their function? Are they changing domestic and foreign policy of your government or are they a reflection of it? Are they causing a civil disturbance? What beyond "They're there, and I don't want them" is the problem? |
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