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wylies99
Joined: 13 May 2006
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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 Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 5:26 pm Post subject: Drunk and stupid: Debauched foreigners & Koreans |
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http://thethreewisemonkeys.com/2012/07/12/drunk-and-stupid-how-debauched-foreigners-feed-koreans-prejudices/
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A few weeks ago there was a foreigner beach party on Wando beach, Jeollanamdo, which every teacher currently working in public schools in that province will have heard about. The party-goers caused quite a number of complaints to come from locals that included too much noise, rubbish on the beach, topless women, and, worst of the lot, the vandalism of a closed public toilet, which was broken into and although without any plumbing (the reason for the closure), was utilized anyway causing what I would imagine to be a particularly unpleasant sight and smell.
The regional coordinator of public school teachers was quite rightly furious and sent a strongly worded e-mail to all teachers warning against any future misconduct and declaring the price that would be paid if the perpetrators are identified.
But this was all a one-off, right? I mean people from any country and any culture can have a bad day, and there are plenty of expats living in Korea who would turn their noses up at such behavior. While this last statement is obviously true, perhaps it is time that those of us coming from Western English-speaking cultures admitted that we have a growing problem with our moral behavior and reputation in other countries and especially with regard to Asian countries.
Most native teachers working in Korea are labeled by their students and many around them as handsome, kind, beautiful, and fun. We take these compliments with an embarrassed smile�even though we realize that many of us do not fit this persona�but also with an air of thinking that it might be true in our case (I know I do). It is our actions when drunk, however, that upset a lot of people. It is when drunk that our kindness, appropriateness, and general awareness of ourselves go completely out of the window. Many act with a carelessness and arrogance, which is seen as a complete disregard and lack of respect for the culture that they find themselves in.
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He may be putting it harshly but, ok, let's see where he goes.
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| The reason for the proliferation of acting stupidly and irresponsibly when drunk is entirely cultural. In Korea, if a person acts in a socially unacceptable way when drunk, they will feel shame for it because of the attitude of others towards them. In the revelrous corner of Western culture, if you can vomit over someone, have a fight, have a one-night stand, spend the night in a police cell, pick up an injury by doing something dangerous, offend a vulnerable minority, and/or lose control of your bowels or bladder, it has been a successful night and you will be rewarded for it with the fame and popularity your story of the evening will bring (though you may regret it later). |
Koreans feel "shame" for what they do when they are drunk? Is that the reality we see every day? And where is he from that drunken stupidity is rewarded with fame and popularity? |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| I think he goes off the deep end a bit in the second part. We're talking about a culture in which vomiting at a business dinner isn't totally abhorrent and your boss will express displeasure at a refusal to do shots, regardless of the reason for abstention. I think a lot of foreigners act ridiculous when drunk specifically because they've seen so many Koreans do so. This isn't to say that these things are socially acceptable in Korea, but Korea is a lot more accepting than the West (North America in particular) when it comes to accepting alcohol-fueled ridiculousness and many foreigners take that the wrong way. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Koreans feel "shame" for what they do when they are drunk? Is that the reality we see every day? And where is he from that drunken stupidity is rewarded with fame and popularity? |
While you could cherry pick anecdotes, I would say that next day shame seems to be much higher among Koreans than foreigners. He is right to say that drunken behaviour is often rewarded and celebrated in western culture, especially among young adults. Why do you think there are so many embarrassing stories about people who get nailed via facebook by employers and potential employers in the west. Have you ever browsed Korean social networks like Cyworld, or even actual Korean's facebook pages? Young people's profiles simply aren't full of the same kind of wild party pictures (outside promoters and pro party girls pages) that one sees on westerners pages. Sounds to me like you're out of touch, but among young people some photo of you drunk out of your mind riding down a giant hill in a shopping cart would make you a facebook celebrity for at least a week.
So yes, I think there is a case to be made that there is a greater shame among Koreans regarding their drunken behaviour. While it may not stop the behaviour in the first place, they show a greater remorse after, rather than run around shoving their debauchery in everyone's faces for days and weeks after.
Yes, I'm generalizing, but this is a general discussion. We've all seen the ridiculously drunk guy on the subway taking up several seats and flailing around in his sleep. But to pretend there isn't a celebration of drunkenness by a significant part of society in the west is to be blind. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Koreans feel "shame" for what they do when they are drunk? Is that the reality we see every day? And where is he from that drunken stupidity is rewarded with fame and popularity? |
While you could cherry pick anecdotes, I would say that next day shame seems to be much higher among Koreans than foreigners. He is right to say that drunken behaviour is often rewarded and celebrated in western culture, especially among young adults. Why do you think there are so many embarrassing stories about people who get nailed via facebook by employers and potential employers in the west. Have you ever browsed Korean social networks like Cyworld, or even actual Korean's facebook pages? Young people's profiles simply aren't full of the same kind of wild party pictures (outside promoters and pro party girls pages) that one sees on westerners pages. Sounds to me like you're out of touch, but among young people some photo of you drunk out of your mind riding down a giant hill in a shopping cart would make you a facebook celebrity for at least a week.
So yes, I think there is a case to be made that there is a greater shame among Koreans regarding their drunken behaviour. While it may not stop the behaviour in the first place, they show a greater remorse after, rather than run around shoving their debauchery in everyone's faces for days and weeks after.
Yes, I'm generalizing, but this is a general discussion. We've all seen the ridiculously drunk guy on the subway taking up several seats and flailing around in his sleep. But to pretend there isn't a celebration of drunkenness by a significant part of society in the west is to be blind. |
In high school, maybe. I think your overall point here is highly dependent on reading a few sensationalized news stories, rather than any real connection to reality. In any case, a brief perusal of the Facebook profiles of the women I've worked with shows a whole bunch of bar photos (far more than those of anyone from my uni cohort, though they apparently glorify drunkenness in public settings). Anecdotal, perhaps, but I think you're reaching. The reason Koreans aren't talking about it the next day is that, generally speaking, they have an extremely blas� attitude towards public drunkenness, not because they abhor it any more than Westerners do. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
In high school, maybe. I think your overall point here is highly dependent on reading a few sensationalized news stories, rather than any real connection to reality. In any case, a brief perusal of the Facebook profiles of the women I've worked with shows a whole bunch of bar photos (far more than those of anyone from my uni cohort, though they apparently glorify drunkenness in public settings). Anecdotal, perhaps, but I think you're reaching. |
In college, much more likely. There is no secret that there is a binge drinking problem among college goers in many western countries. That high school mentality carries over for many into college, and it's glorified further in movies and TV shows where offensive drunken behaviour is often used to great comedic effect. You will find no shortage of college aged people posting pics and videos of themselves drunk and doing something stupid..
spring break is really all that needs to be said. For some it doesn't stop at just a week. |
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Weigookin74
Joined: 26 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Korea is seen by many 22 year olds as an extention of college. Party. Hire more older teachers and cut down on this. That said, if it's ok for Koreans to be drunk, why are foriegners so bad? Before the recession, there was more of a mixed age group. Koreans wanted younger and now have no one to blame but themselves. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Weigookin74 wrote: |
| Korea is seen by many 22 year olds as an extention of college. Party. Hire more older teachers and cut down on this. That said, if it's ok for Koreans to be drunk, why are foriegners so bad? Before the recession, there was more of a mixed age group. Koreans wanted younger and now have no one to blame but themselves. |
I think it's hard to explain this without generalizing, but I think for the most part you'll find a difference in the way being drunk, both during and after is handled by many koreans and many westerners. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
In high school, maybe. I think your overall point here is highly dependent on reading a few sensationalized news stories, rather than any real connection to reality. In any case, a brief perusal of the Facebook profiles of the women I've worked with shows a whole bunch of bar photos (far more than those of anyone from my uni cohort, though they apparently glorify drunkenness in public settings). Anecdotal, perhaps, but I think you're reaching. |
In college, much more likely. There is no secret that there is a binge drinking problem among college goers in many western countries. That high school mentality carries over for many into college, and it's glorified further in movies and TV shows where offensive drunken behaviour is often used to great comedic effect. You will find no shortage of college aged people posting pics and videos of themselves drunk and doing something stupid..
spring break is really all that needs to be said. For some it doesn't stop at just a week. |
Perhaps this depends on the school in question, but I and all my high school friends had Facebook essentially from its inception in 2004, and outside of the occasional clubbing picture I haven't seen much that could possibly be deemed inappropriate. Again, I think you're relying on sensationalized news stories here, |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
In high school, maybe. I think your overall point here is highly dependent on reading a few sensationalized news stories, rather than any real connection to reality. In any case, a brief perusal of the Facebook profiles of the women I've worked with shows a whole bunch of bar photos (far more than those of anyone from my uni cohort, though they apparently glorify drunkenness in public settings). Anecdotal, perhaps, but I think you're reaching. |
In college, much more likely. There is no secret that there is a binge drinking problem among college goers in many western countries. That high school mentality carries over for many into college, and it's glorified further in movies and TV shows where offensive drunken behaviour is often used to great comedic effect. You will find no shortage of college aged people posting pics and videos of themselves drunk and doing something stupid..
spring break is really all that needs to be said. For some it doesn't stop at just a week. |
Perhaps this depends on the school in question, but I and all my high school friends had Facebook essentially from its inception in 2004, and outside of the occasional clubbing picture I haven't seen much that could possibly be deemed inappropriate. Again, I think you're relying on sensationalized news stories here, |
Why don't you google some stuff like keg stands, spring break, or drunk college pictures and get back to me on how limited the trend is..I think you're relying on a very narrow world view and no real awareness of anything beyond that. It really won't take long for you to find an unending supply of college aged individuals more than happy to post their drunken stupidity online and revel in it. Just because your limited friend-set doesn't usually post their drunken pictures online doesn't mean it isn't all over the place. It goes well beyond a couple of news stories. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| It does go beyond a few news stories, but I still think those news stories portray it as significantly more common than it is. A vocal minority, no matter how small, will get far more attention than a reasonable majority. Moreover, all it takes it one idiot from a given group to broadcast the entire group's debauchery to the world, not a group of idiots. I'm not saying that the binge drinking doesn't happen, I'm saying that the vast majority of people are smart enough to not post pictures of it on the Internet after the fact. My apparently limited world view is a pretty broad regional and socioeconomic cross section, so I don't think that's the issue. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| It does go beyond a few news stories, but I still think those news stories portray it as significantly more common than it is. A vocal minority, no matter how small, will get far more attention than a reasonable majority. Moreover, all it takes it one idiot from a given group to broadcast the entire group's debauchery to the world, not a group of idiots. I'm not saying that the binge drinking doesn't happen, I'm saying that the vast majority of people are smart enough to not post pictures of it on the Internet after the fact. My apparently limited world view is a pretty broad regional and socioeconomic cross section, so I don't think that's the issue. |
The point was the revelling in it. Even if it isn't posted on facebook, the groups that engage in that behaviour often encourage each other and celebrate that binge drinking and destructive behaviour. That's why it has become more popular. If people weren't cheering people on, very few would go out and get hammered to that degree and do those ridiculous things. This is reinforced in various media where the behaviour of characters like that is often celebrated by other characters. This goes on well beyond a high school level. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| alongway wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| It does go beyond a few news stories, but I still think those news stories portray it as significantly more common than it is. A vocal minority, no matter how small, will get far more attention than a reasonable majority. Moreover, all it takes it one idiot from a given group to broadcast the entire group's debauchery to the world, not a group of idiots. I'm not saying that the binge drinking doesn't happen, I'm saying that the vast majority of people are smart enough to not post pictures of it on the Internet after the fact. My apparently limited world view is a pretty broad regional and socioeconomic cross section, so I don't think that's the issue. |
The point was the revelling in it. Even if it isn't posted on facebook, the groups that engage in that behaviour often encourage each other and celebrate that binge drinking and destructive behaviour. That's why it has become more popular. If people weren't cheering people on, very few would go out and get hammered to that degree and do those ridiculous things. This is reinforced in various media where the behaviour of characters like that is often celebrated by other characters. This goes on well beyond a high school level. |
I don't think your causality makes sense. Korean adults have a much, much worse problem with binge drinking than North American adults; is this due to the Korean media glorifying alcohol consumption? Maybe people just like drinking. |
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alongway
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| It does go beyond a few news stories, but I still think those news stories portray it as significantly more common than it is. A vocal minority, no matter how small, will get far more attention than a reasonable majority. Moreover, all it takes it one idiot from a given group to broadcast the entire group's debauchery to the world, not a group of idiots. I'm not saying that the binge drinking doesn't happen, I'm saying that the vast majority of people are smart enough to not post pictures of it on the Internet after the fact. My apparently limited world view is a pretty broad regional and socioeconomic cross section, so I don't think that's the issue. |
The point was the revelling in it. Even if it isn't posted on facebook, the groups that engage in that behaviour often encourage each other and celebrate that binge drinking and destructive behaviour. That's why it has become more popular. If people weren't cheering people on, very few would go out and get hammered to that degree and do those ridiculous things. This is reinforced in various media where the behaviour of characters like that is often celebrated by other characters. This goes on well beyond a high school level. |
I don't think your causality makes sense. Korean adults have a much, much worse problem with binge drinking than North American adults; is this due to the Korean media glorifying alcohol consumption? Maybe people just like drinking. |
The point was the revelling in it. The point was the revelling in it. The point was the revelling in it. The point was the revelling in it.
I think I'd have to search a lot harder to find even a tiny fraction of the photos and videos online of Koreans celebrating their past drunken exploits compared to westerners. Yes, Koreans get drunk and wild. They egg each other on taking shots and keep each other's glass full. But I don't think you'll find the culture at any age level of publicly revelling in the inappropriate things one did when they were drunk to the degree that you do in the west. |
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highstreet
Joined: 13 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| alongway wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
| It does go beyond a few news stories, but I still think those news stories portray it as significantly more common than it is. A vocal minority, no matter how small, will get far more attention than a reasonable majority. Moreover, all it takes it one idiot from a given group to broadcast the entire group's debauchery to the world, not a group of idiots. I'm not saying that the binge drinking doesn't happen, I'm saying that the vast majority of people are smart enough to not post pictures of it on the Internet after the fact. My apparently limited world view is a pretty broad regional and socioeconomic cross section, so I don't think that's the issue. |
The point was the revelling in it. Even if it isn't posted on facebook, the groups that engage in that behaviour often encourage each other and celebrate that binge drinking and destructive behaviour. That's why it has become more popular. If people weren't cheering people on, very few would go out and get hammered to that degree and do those ridiculous things. This is reinforced in various media where the behaviour of characters like that is often celebrated by other characters. This goes on well beyond a high school level. |
I don't think your causality makes sense. Korean adults have a much, much worse problem with binge drinking than North American adults; is this due to the Korean media glorifying alcohol consumption? Maybe people just like drinking. |
Did you just make this up? |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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I get the impression that your youth is behind you and you're wagging your finger at the younger generation for its perceived faults. Don't use an idiot subset to paint an entire generation.
As for Koreans being embarrassed by what happens when they're drunk, I think you're way off base. Again: Korean views on alcohol are typically very blas�, much moreso than in the West, but I'm not sure why that's a good thing. Korean alcohol consumption is higher than that of any of the countries E2s come from, businessmen in suits are frequently seen passed out in gutters, and you're supposed to get drunk at business events. The initial claim, which you agreed with, was that acting stupid when drunk was a particularly Western phenomenon. Are you sure about that?
| highstreet wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
I don't think your causality makes sense. Korean adults have a much, much worse problem with binge drinking than North American adults; is this due to the Korean media glorifying alcohol consumption? Maybe people just like drinking. |
Did you just make this up? |
Both the statistics and the anecdotal evidence agree. |
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