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luckylady
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories
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 Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| nick70100 wrote: |
I'm curious... how exactly does immigration catch people doing this sort of thing? and what happens next?
I would guess a lot of their information comes from people phoning in tips or whatever. I can't imagine they're out cruising the streets looking for people who may be teaching privately. But what happens after they've been tipped off? they start gathering evidence? surveillance? what sort of evidence do they need? and who do they have to show it to? Who makes the decision? Is there a trial or hearing of some sort? Can you appeal? Or do they just send you straight to the airport?
I just don't understand how it all works. It also seems like it would be nearly impossible to prove that money has changed hands as long as cash is used. There does seem to be a lot of paranoia surrounding the issue here on Dave's though. |
I worked with a teacher once who was on a tourist visa and had been for quite a while. she called one morning from the airport saying Kimmi had called her the night before and she had been given the option to leave immediately or be deported, so she left.
I've always wondered if this was true or she was just ready to go, but she liked her job and our school so I really don't think she lied. also she sounded very stressed and a bit scared.
Kimmi used to send emails to me and my school close to the end of a contract asking for updates on my status and whereabouts; they stopped doing that around 2007. I think they have other ways now.
do they monitor bank accounts? I don't think so and it would be really difficult to do so anyway. if they started a formal investigation, maybe then they would.
do they follow every "tip" about foreigners teaching privates? how would they know it was done illegally? maybe that foreigner has the proper visa so unless there's some other reason, I doubt it.
I think the biggest and most legitimate threat to teaching illegally is when a hakwon wants you to teach on a tourist visa. they are the ones that Kimmi will watch and monitor as those are Korean businesses who are actually on the radar. it makes the most sense and that's what happened to the teacher I mentioned above. there have also been incidents when Kimmi raided hakwons and asked about the foreign teachers, their status, visas, etc.
I've never heard of anyone teaching privates getting busted. not saying it hasn't happened, just haven't heard of it, nor do I recall it ever being a news story and that, for sure, would have happened.
this forum has a strict policy about discussing teaching privates as it IS illegal, but all the same, it would be good to know if anyone has ever been busted for doing so. |
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young_clinton
Joined: 09 Sep 2009
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Beware of the incorrect info above ^ .
Teaching English anywhere other than the address on your ARC is illegal if you are an E2 teacher and if you are a dependent of an E2 teacher.
Teaching private lessons on an E2 visa is illegal even when you teach for free.
As to getting caught, the chances are small, but the most likely way you will be caught is by someone turning you in to Immigration.
If you teach in your own apartment, or even in other apartments in your own apartment building or complex, there is a good chance that you will stir up jealousy in a neighbor who will turn you in.
If you take students from your own school, or any other school that finds out about you, or if you have made any Korean enemies, or foriegn teacher enemies, or have p.o.'d your ex ____friend ... anyone with an axe to grind who finds out about you may turn you in.
I've seen numerous cases of E2s teaching privates who got caught - some who received warnings from Immigration and some who were deported and banned from working in Korea - this includes both lessons given free and exchange lessons. There is also the possibility of someone using the threat of reporting a known E2 private teacher as blackmail. |
Immigration won't care if you feel that you're doing charity work or just helping someone out. Better to just not do it, and take no risks. |
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Scorpion
Joined: 15 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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What we do with our free time (so long as no funds are exchanged) is none of the state's business. We're having dinner at a friend's house and I can't help their kid with their honmework or chat to her in English? I think we're getting absurdly paranoid here. If no money is exchanged you have nothing to fear. It's just simple human interaction, even if you are helping a freind's kid. It's the monetary exchange that's the game changer.
You all need to relax. |
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luckylady
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Scorpion wrote: |
What we do with our free time (so long as no funds are exchanged) is none of the state's business. We're having dinner at a friend's house and I can't help their kid with their honmework or chat to her in English? I think we're getting absurdly paranoid here. If no money is exchanged you have nothing to fear. It's just simple human interaction, even if you are helping a freind's kid. It's the monetary exchange that's the game changer.
You all need to relax. |
agreed |
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ajosshi
Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: ajosshi.com
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| Posted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| luckylady wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
What we do with our free time (so long as no funds are exchanged) is none of the state's business. We're having dinner at a friend's house and I can't help their kid with their honmework or chat to her in English? I think we're getting absurdly paranoid here. If no money is exchanged you have nothing to fear. It's just simple human interaction, even if you are helping a freind's kid. It's the monetary exchange that's the game changer.
You all need to relax. |
agreed |
Personally, I agree. Legally, that assumption is false. |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:57 am Post subject: |
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| ajosshi wrote: |
| luckylady wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
What we do with our free time (so long as no funds are exchanged) is none of the state's business. We're having dinner at a friend's house and I can't help their kid with their honmework or chat to her in English? I think we're getting absurdly paranoid here. If no money is exchanged you have nothing to fear. It's just simple human interaction, even if you are helping a freind's kid. It's the monetary exchange that's the game changer.
You all need to relax. |
agreed |
Personally, I agree. Legally, that assumption is false. |
In what way is it false? Show us some evidence? |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
I've seen numerous cases of E2s teaching privates who got caught - some who received warnings from Immigration and some who were deported and banned from working in Korea - this includes both lessons given free and exchange lessons. There is also the possibility of someone using the threat of reporting a known E2 private teacher as blackmail. |
Evidence please. |
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singerdude
Joined: 18 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| ajosshi wrote: |
| luckylady wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
What we do with our free time (so long as no funds are exchanged) is none of the state's business. We're having dinner at a friend's house and I can't help their kid with their honmework or chat to her in English? I think we're getting absurdly paranoid here. If no money is exchanged you have nothing to fear. It's just simple human interaction, even if you are helping a freind's kid. It's the monetary exchange that's the game changer.
You all need to relax. |
agreed |
Personally, I agree. Legally, that assumption is false. |
In what way is it false? Show us some evidence? |
What about looking at it the other way? Can you guarantee that immigration won't do anything if someone happens to turn you in and you tell them it was for free? Is there any evidence supporting that? Because of this, I don't think it's worth the risk, however small. I remember my first boss telling me that the law gets interpreted many different ways here and even he, as a Korean, has to be careful with the law because he can't predict which way it will go.
Many of these opinions are centered around the occasional helping out with English in a social setting, which I doubt would be a problem. The OP however, is talking about regular lessons which can be tracked if they're at the same scheduled time each week. It is impossible to know all of the details of every teacher that was caught. Who can say with certainty that none of them were fined or deported with no evidence of money changing hands? Maybe some of them were, maybe they weren't. My point is, regarding the law, that unless there are specific points in the law stating they must prove there is money changing hands, it isn't worth the risk.
Can anyone shed some light on this? |
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Troglodyte
Joined: 06 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| singerdude wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| ajosshi wrote: |
| luckylady wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
What we do with our free time (so long as no funds are exchanged) is none of the state's business. We're having dinner at a friend's house and I can't help their kid with their honmework or chat to her in English? I think we're getting absurdly paranoid here. If no money is exchanged you have nothing to fear. It's just simple human interaction, even if you are helping a freind's kid. It's the monetary exchange that's the game changer.
You all need to relax. |
agreed |
Personally, I agree. Legally, that assumption is false. |
In what way is it false? Show us some evidence? |
What about looking at it the other way? Can you guarantee that immigration won't do anything if someone happens to turn you in and you tell them it was for free? Is there any evidence supporting that? Because of this, I don't think it's worth the risk, however small. I remember my first boss telling me that the law gets interpreted many different ways here and even he, as a Korean, has to be careful with the law because he can't predict which way it will go.
Many of these opinions are centered around the occasional helping out with English in a social setting, which I doubt would be a problem. The OP however, is talking about regular lessons which can be tracked if they're at the same scheduled time each week. It is impossible to know all of the details of every teacher that was caught. Who can say with certainty that none of them were fined or deported with no evidence of money changing hands? Maybe some of them were, maybe they weren't. My point is, regarding the law, that unless there are specific points in the law stating they must prove there is money changing hands, it isn't worth the risk.
Can anyone shed some light on this? |
The onus is not on the accused to prove innocence. It's on the accuser to prove guilt.
Constitution of the Republic of Korea
Article 27, paragraph 4
The accused are presumed innocent until a judgment of guilt has been pronounced. |
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NilesQ
Joined: 27 Nov 2006
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: |
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| I taught privates on a tourist visa for 2 years. I wouldn't be too worried about getting deported for hanging out with your Vet's kids once a week. On thing I would caution against, though. This is the land of give an inch take a mile. You start doing "free" classes and they will become very regular and expected events. The friendship won't last long. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
| singerdude wrote: |
| Troglodyte wrote: |
| ajosshi wrote: |
| luckylady wrote: |
| Scorpion wrote: |
What we do with our free time (so long as no funds are exchanged) is none of the state's business. We're having dinner at a friend's house and I can't help their kid with their honmework or chat to her in English? I think we're getting absurdly paranoid here. If no money is exchanged you have nothing to fear. It's just simple human interaction, even if you are helping a freind's kid. It's the monetary exchange that's the game changer.
You all need to relax. |
agreed |
Personally, I agree. Legally, that assumption is false. |
In what way is it false? Show us some evidence? |
What about looking at it the other way? Can you guarantee that immigration won't do anything if someone happens to turn you in and you tell them it was for free? Is there any evidence supporting that? Because of this, I don't think it's worth the risk, however small. I remember my first boss telling me that the law gets interpreted many different ways here and even he, as a Korean, has to be careful with the law because he can't predict which way it will go.
Many of these opinions are centered around the occasional helping out with English in a social setting, which I doubt would be a problem. The OP however, is talking about regular lessons which can be tracked if they're at the same scheduled time each week. It is impossible to know all of the details of every teacher that was caught. Who can say with certainty that none of them were fined or deported with no evidence of money changing hands? Maybe some of them were, maybe they weren't. My point is, regarding the law, that unless there are specific points in the law stating they must prove there is money changing hands, it isn't worth the risk.
Can anyone shed some light on this? |
The onus is not on the accused to prove innocence. It's on the accuser to prove guilt.
Constitution of the Republic of Korea
Article 27, paragraph 4
The accused are presumed innocent until a judgment of guilt has been pronounced. |
That's in a court of law. Immigration does not operate by those standards. Remember the Busan Nine?
If Immigration says you are teaching English and you say you aren't...it would be your word against theirs in a court of law. Who do you think the judge is more likely to believe? And that's if you can afford a lawyer and the time to do so to say nothing of the money.
Plus keep in mind most contracts allow for dismissal for issues like that and it doesn't have to be illegal (just hurt the school's reputation). Then Immigration cancels your visa. Yes you can get a 'stay' if you have a court case pending...but guess who issues that 'stay'?
Are you willing to take that chance? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Troglodyte wrote: |
[q.
OP, in your case you don't need to worry. It's not illegal to teach for free. There are plenty of people (on an E2 even) who teach at orphanages or other institutions for disadvantaged children - for free. Plenty of foreigners also do language exchange - for free. . |
Even for free it is illegal to teach (for E-2's). Even if you teach at an orphanage you MUST get Immigration's permission first if you are on an E-2 for "activities permitted under the status of sojourn". |
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nick70100
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
That's in a court of law. Immigration does not operate by those standards. Remember the Busan Nine?
If Immigration says you are teaching English and you say you aren't...it would be your word against theirs in a court of law. Who do you think the judge is more likely to believe? And that's if you can afford a lawyer and the time to do so to say nothing of the money.
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So do these cases actually go to court? That's what I've been trying to ask here. What is the process? What actually happens after immigration suspects that someone is doing something wrong?
Also, if teaching with no money changing hands is against the rules it makes me wonder where they draw the line. If I'm out with a Korean friend and he asks me what a certain English word means and I tell him, have I just engaged in "illegal private teaching"? Obviously there's a huge amount of gray area between this and, say, having a formal class schedule and placing advertisements around the neighborhood, but if one doesn't need to be paid it's hard for me too determine what exactly consitutes "teaching" and what does not.
If what you're saying is true, that you don't need to be paid and immigration doesn't need any hard evidence, then basically any immigration officer could have any E-2 teacher deported at any time for any reason. Is that correct? |
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viciousdinosaur
Joined: 30 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| nick70100 wrote: |
then basically any immigration officer could have any E-2 teacher deported at any time for any reason. Is that correct? |
Yeah, that's right. This is not the land of the free. Korea's democracy is younger than you are. I would say, for sure, if an immigration official, hell any official, has it out for you, then yeah, you're gone. |
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Otus
Joined: 09 Feb 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 1:05 am Post subject: |
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In my experience, some of which I've seen happen, but still with a degree of heresay, the reasons for foreign teachers getting into trouble with immigration for illegal lessons:
1. Angry ex girlfriend - this used to be almost epidemic - maybe it still is.
I think more teachers were turned in this way than any other.
2. Immigration raids and takes resumes from recruiting agencies. Most
big recruiting agencies don't let this happen these days and only use
teachers on the F series visas.
3. Other foreigners, particularly those on the F series visas reporting
E visas.
Generally speaking, at least with Koreans, you had to really upset someone enough to go to the trouble of making a complaint; and that would take a bit of doing. The average Joe or Cho doesn't really think that much about immigration laws unless you give them a good reason to. |
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