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Don't Teach Korea - Internet Crusade
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sml7285



Joined: 26 Apr 2012

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

northway wrote:

2) You need to make a distinction in job types here. What you're saying makes sense for the larger classes you deal with in a public school, but doesn't really make sense for an immersion kindergarten. Knowing Korean is largely unimportant when the students are receiving solely English instruction. Though it an help, it's hardly a necessity.

3) Having never taught, maybe you're missing this, but it's not necessarily the teacher's fault if the students don't understand them. If the students haven't received good instruction in the past, yet have continued to be pushed on to more difficult material, it's awfully difficult to make cohesive lessons that the students will actually get anything out of. You answer to your boss, there are things you have to teach, regardless of whether the students have a strong enough foundation to understand the new material.


Well the article that was posted only mentioned large public schools in Seoul.

I spent a semester taking a math education course (general ed. requirement) where I shadowed a teacher for a semester and also spent close to ten years coaching swimmers. If you think that it's difficult teaching kids in a classroom setting, then image how difficult it is to coach swimmers who are in a cool swimming pool on a hot summer afternoon with their friends floating around alongside them.

Trust me - I have dealt with everything I have read on these forums before. The overbearing parents; the unhappy students; the crappy bosses. I was an All-American swimmer my senior year in HS. Imagine my surprise when a parent told me I had no idea what I was talking about.

I'm merely taking my own experiences and expressing my opinion.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Also - trying to state that Koreans try to learn English to get a better global job is laughable. Koreans try to get a higher TOEIC score so that they can get a job at Hyundai or Samsung where they will occasionally get an English email, but never spend any time speaking it.


Have you ever taught Korean adults? I taught them for many years at a school that didn't even offer TOEIC classes and they came for a whole host of reasons. Many of the came because they already worked at a global company and wanted to communicate with their foreign boss better and a lot wanted to get a job at a foreign company because they thought the conditions would be better. The majority of the student aged ones wanted to do masters in English speaking countries and there were even a significant number who were interested in learning the language for learning's sake. Just because they were interested.
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iggyb



Joined: 29 Oct 2003

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
where they'll be getting four hours or more of English every day


But that is far from average.

In the vast majority of ESL/EFL settings, some limited use of the L1 helps speed up improvement. Limted use is the key phrase.

I'm also not sure how bad the Korean English dictionaries are. Students who are going to be using them should be able to pick out the translation that fits the context most of the time.
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edwardcatflap



Joined: 22 Mar 2009

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In the vast majority of ESL/EFL settings, some limited use of the L1 helps speed up improvement


Helps speed up improvement of what? Using L1 doesn't speed up the students' improvement of understanding when a native speaker defines something for example. If you're talking about translating individual lexis directly into Korean to 'speed up' students' vocabulary learning, you could speed it up even quicker by just giving them a sheet of vocabulary items translated into Korean for them to learn. Or send it by email and save time on students coming to class. I think in a discussion in this area we have to look at specific examples of how L1 can speed up improvement. How exactly should it be used to best effect?
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iggyb



Joined: 29 Oct 2003

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is connected to time.

Individual words are not as important as seeing and using them in context and as part of a language act/use of language.

Images or video or visual demonstrations that enhance comprehension of words and phrases and language usage are ideal - but at times they are not readily available ---

--- sometimes you want to make sure the students understand the word or phrase - or you want to highlight it as useful for their level (giving them contact with it which will hopefully be repeated later too) --- but you don't want to take up much of your limited class time focusing on individual words or phrases (vocabulary).

When key words to their level come up in class, I like to write them on a poster on the wall or on the whiteboard and I'll ask "What's that in Korean (or Spanish)?"

If almost nobody answers, I know they don't know it and I'll have to decide how much time the word is worth spending at that moment or in a subsequent activity.

If any students blurt out the same word, there is a good chance they are right. I gives me an idea of how useful the word is for the class. And I can have some assurance the students who are not too familiar with it (and who speak Korean (or Spanish)) will have had meaningful contact with it.

Students know they should write down in their notebooks any key vocabulary or sentence patterns I write on the board - especially on the wall poster.

Those items become material for future lessons and/or tests.

In short, allowing some very limited use of the L1 in class can provide meaningful contract with key vocabulary without spending too much of your limited classtime on individual words.

Often, you will have good material prepared for the key target vocabulary involved in lessons you've planned for.

But during an activity, other vocabulary (and grammar) items come up that you know are very useful for the level of the class.

What you do with them has a big impact on classtime and meaninful contact and comprehension...

Some things you ignore beyond how they came up in immediate context. X% of the students will have missed it completely and had no meaninful contact with it.

Other things might be more useful for the class' level and be worth highlighting? What do you do then?

Sometimes, I'll jump on the computer and do a quick google image if I know it can be done fast.

Sometimes I'll just write it on the board and expect the students to copy it down and look it up later.

Sometimes I'll ask if who knows it and what it is in the L1 of students.

Sometimes I might do something else...

But I do think giving it to the students in their L1 can save time by giving almost everyone in the class immediate comprehension which helps them retain the English word ----- which means they have made meaninful contact with a useful item.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

northway wrote:
TheUrbanMyth wrote:
quot;]
I disagree. Primarily in English...but when the students don't know a word instead of spending five minutes in pantomime or have them search in their dictionaries I say it in Korean and move on. It keeps the flow of the lesson and makes the students feel more comfortable. (see the link above). I keep track of the words (usually 2-3) that I say in Korean and at the end of the lesson assign homework which consists of writing each word out ten times with the Korean translation next to it as well. Believe me they know that word come next class without the Korean translation. .


I think it depends on age and the amount of time you have for instruction, here. With younger kids in a proper immersion environment where they'll be getting four hours or more of English every day, I think you can take your time and accomplish more. With older kids who are only going to have a few hours of English a week, you don't have the time to waste and you're looking for maximum absorption in that short time.


This is a very good point Mr. northway.

I should mention here (apropos of Mr. northway's point) that I teach high school kids....and only have each class ONCE per week. So including exam days and holidays and school birthdays...we are talking 40 classes (at most) for the entire YEAR.
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TheUrbanMyth



Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

edwardcatflap wrote:
Quote:
I disagree. Primarily in English...but when the students don't know a word instead of spending five minutes in pantomime or have them search in their dictionaries I say it in Korean and move on. It keeps the flow of the lesson and makes the students feel more comfortable.


(1) Alternatively you could say that the teacher explaining an item of vocabulary in the target language and the students understanding is a genuine communicative process which will give the students a sense of achievement and more confidence in real life interaction.

(2) When the teacher checks the students understanding through concept checking questions that is more comprehensive input and not a waste of time at all. It is part of the lesson not an interuption.

(3) Additionally getting the students to look in their dictionaries is important learner training which will equip them better to deal with situations when an interpreter is not around. Having said that it does depend on the word and the students� level


(I took the liberty of numbering your points for greater clarity.)

1. The key thing here is the students' understanding. We're talking high school students who have difficulty mastering a reply to "how are you?"
in English. No...I'm not joking. When I first came to this school...over 3/4ths of the kids could not reply. They'd freeze and do a credible imitation of a deer caught in the headlights. Only a small minority could reply and of them about half needed it repeated or translated into Korean by the co-teacher or their friends. Pretty much all of them have learned the answer to that and other simple questions through patient modeling and repetition.
Given that is the majority's level, explaining even a simple context in English...can be extremely tasking.
Also consider my time constraints as explained in my above posts.


2. See number 1 above (in reference to the students' comprehension)

3. For younger learners who you can spend more time with yes...looking in the dictionary can do that. But when you have high school kids who come from dirt poor families (most can't afford a dictionary or so my co-teacher claims)...then you have 20 kids sharing the five or so dictionaries in the English room and you can see the problems that arise from that. Add to that the time constraints of only seeing them once a week...and translating a couple of words into Korean becomes the least worst choice of several bad ones.
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iggyb



Joined: 29 Oct 2003

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's not much you can legitimately do when you only have the students once a week.

By legitimate, I mean something more than putting on a show and pretending you are accomplishing more...

With a low level class like that, I'd concentrate on short common dialogs and basic grammar points that come up all the time. I like focusing on verbs, and the simple past is a good one for this kind of work: Irregular simple past verbs are easy to comprehend but require repeated contact and practice before they are mastered.

The good thing about surival level classes is that everything is new and useful - especially the most commonly encountered material.

And in East Asia, you rarely have true low beginner or survival level class. Koreans and Japanese and Chinese spend years memorizing and "learning" grammar points but don't get enough time using it or seeing it in use.

If you spend time on communicative activities where students put into practice the most common sentence patterns and conversations (phone etique, greetings, classroom English, and so on), and they become more comfortable with communicating, it starts to unlock their memories and loosen up the set sentence patterns and grammar points they've studied before...
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