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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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 Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
The E-2 visa was targeted...but none of the other visa holders were.
All of the other visa holders together outnumber the E-2 visa holders many times over.
So if a small proportion of foreigners (AND SOME PEOPLE OF KOREAN DESCENT) were/are subject to greater checks but the VAST majority of foreigners were not...how in the world is that racist?
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Because the majority of whites in this country are on the E2 visa and the majority of E2 holders are white, and that was the only visa targeted.
The visa's where whites are a minority, or not included were not targeted.
1+1=2 |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
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So you're saying that the policies put in place after Mr. SquigglyFace whatshisname aren't racist because they only apply to a certain subsection of visa holders? Isn't that the very definition of racism?
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Since when does holding a certain type of visa apply to race? You are aware that there are people of Korean ancestry who are on E-2 visas yes? (they couldn't get an F-visa for one reason or another).
There are whites and non-whites on E-2 visas. There are white and non-whites on other kinds of visas.
The E-2 visa was targeted...but none of the other visa holders were. All of the other visa holders together outnumber the E-2 visa holders many times over. So if a small proportion of foreigners (AND SOME PEOPLE OF KOREAN DESCENT) were/are subject to greater checks but the VAST majority of foreigners were not...how in the world is that racist?
Discriminatory it may be in the sense that they applied to only one group of visa holders but certainly not racist. Anyway it's a moot point because under the new guidelines these apply to ALL people teaching children whether you are a foreigner or Korean and whether you teach at a school or hakwon. |
Uh, yeah. That's why I said that it wasn't racist in my post. My point was that Steel Rails wasn't making any sense by saying a policy directed at one type of visa can't be racist. A policy targeting a specific subsection is the very definition of discrimination. These rules apply to Koreans, too? Tell that to my CT who also had to do a medical test with me, except for the drug test. And HIV/AIDS test. And TB test (which is even more ridiculous seeing as she has the exact same chance of having TB as I do sitting right next to her). But that's not discrimination because Koreans born in the US have to do the test if they're on an E2 visa. All five of them. (Just in case your sarcasm meter is broken, that was sarcastic). |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Because the majority of whites in this country are on the E2 visa and the majority of E2 holders are white, and that was the only visa targeted.
The visa's where whites are a minority, or not included were not targeted.
1+1=2 |
Thank goodness we have data to see if such conclusions are valid. Now admittedly, these statistics are old, but let's look at them. Hmm, now things may have changed, but I really can't see E-2s being the majority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_South_Korean_visas
But there are other visas where whites are a likely majority as well. They didn't have those changes.
| Quote: |
| The visa's where whites are a minority, or not included were not targeted. |
Those visas also don't involve the education of minors and for most of them, employment by the public school system.
Did it ever occur to you that the whole "educating minors" thing might be why things are a little more stringent, not race? There is also a substantially different level of liability for educators of minors at schools and institutions.
1+1=2 works only if there are no other values and variables in the equation.
Lastly, if you were in charge of immigration policy, wouldn't you require drug tests and CBCs?
| Quote: |
| These rules apply to Koreans, too? Tell that to my CT who also had to do a medical test with me, except for the drug test. And HIV/AIDS test. And TB test (which is even more ridiculous seeing as she has the exact same chance of having TB as I do sitting right next to her). But that's not discrimination because Koreans born in the US have to do the test if they're on an E2 visa. All five of them. (Just in case your sarcasm meter is broken, that was sarcastic). |
So you met the same five Overseas Koreans I know who are on E-2s? What are the odds? Little ol me out in the boondocks has met the same five Korean E-2s Mr. Black Cat has.
Now either that incredible long shot is true OR there are more than just a handful of Koreans on E-2s. Of the 12 Korean-American/Canadians I've met who were teaching English in my hometown over the past 4 years, five were on E-2s. Some didn't bother with the F-2 because they were TALK scholars and were only going to be here for 6 months. Some of them, their parents didn't want them to go, so they went anyway without their family papers. Some didn't have their papers either way.
And yes, its not racial discrimination. It may be discrimination based on profession. It may be discrimination based on national origin. But it is not discrimination based on race.
And guess who else doesn't have to take the tests if, and only if, they work for a Hagwon. White people on any kind of permanent visa or the C-4 visa, and I believe foreign students are allowed to do a limited number of privates.
That's like saying is that a law in America regulating the amount of work foreign students are allowed to do is racist against Asians because most foreign students are Asian. How can it be racist if it also applies to students from across the globe. How can it be racist if there are also regulations on the amount of work and income American student-athletes can earn? |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Quote: |
Because the majority of whites in this country are on the E2 visa and the majority of E2 holders are white, and that was the only visa targeted.
The visa's where whites are a minority, or not included were not targeted.
1+1=2 |
Thank goodness we have data to see if such conclusions are valid. Now admittedly, these statistics are old, but let's look at them. Hmm, now things may have changed, but I really can't see E-2s being the majority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_South_Korean_visas
But there are other visas where whites are a likely majority as well. They didn't have those changes.
| Quote: |
| The visa's where whites are a minority, or not included were not targeted. |
Those visas also don't involve the education of minors and for most of them, employment by the public school system.
Did it ever occur to you that the whole "educating minors" thing might be why things are a little more stringent, not race? There is also a substantially different level of liability for educators of minors at schools and institutions.
1+1=2 works only if there are no other values and variables in the equation.
Lastly, if you were in charge of immigration policy, wouldn't you require drug tests and CBCs?
| Quote: |
| These rules apply to Koreans, too? Tell that to my CT who also had to do a medical test with me, except for the drug test. And HIV/AIDS test. And TB test (which is even more ridiculous seeing as she has the exact same chance of having TB as I do sitting right next to her). But that's not discrimination because Koreans born in the US have to do the test if they're on an E2 visa. All five of them. (Just in case your sarcasm meter is broken, that was sarcastic). |
So you met the same five Overseas Koreans I know who are on E-2s? What are the odds? Little ol me out in the boondocks has met the same five Korean E-2s Mr. Black Cat has.
Now either that incredible long shot is true OR there are more than just a handful of Koreans on E-2s. Of the 12 Korean-American/Canadians I've met who were teaching English in my hometown over the past 4 years, five were on E-2s. Some didn't bother with the F-2 because they were TALK scholars and were only going to be here for 6 months. Some of them, their parents didn't want them to go, so they went anyway without their family papers. Some didn't have their papers either way.
And yes, its not racial discrimination. It may be discrimination based on profession. It may be discrimination based on national origin. But it is not discrimination based on race.
And guess who else doesn't have to take the tests if, and only if, they work for a Hagwon. White people on any kind of permanent visa or the C-4 visa, and I believe foreign students are allowed to do a limited number of privates.
That's like saying is that a law in America regulating the amount of work foreign students are allowed to do is racist against Asians because most foreign students are Asian. How can it be racist if it also applies to students from across the globe. How can it be racist if there are also regulations on the amount of work and income American student-athletes can earn? |
I realize that I'm merely shouting louder and louder at a brick wall as I've done several times in the past here, but let me restate that I agreed that the policies weren't racist. I was refuting your claim that only targeting one type of foreigners couldn't be racist by pointing out that is the very definition of racism. IN THIS CASE IT IS NOT RACIST, HOWEVER. I might call it culturally biased, though. Probably xenophobic is closer. Which is fine, it's their country, they can do what they want. But pretending that it's equal because a couple of ethnic Koreans happen to get caught in the net is pretty silly, especially when you even state that these guys had the opportunity to circumvent these policies due to their ethnicity but chose not to. Do they even count, then?
In any case, I'll let the Sarcasm Machine factory know your model is broken (again!). Man, judging by this site Sarcasm Inc. is going to have to start recalling those things! |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:19 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
[
So you're saying that the policies put in place after Mr. SquigglyFace whatshisname aren't racist because they only apply to a certain subsection of visa holders? Isn't that the very definition of racism?
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Since when does holding a certain type of visa apply to race? You are aware that there are people of Korean ancestry who are on E-2 visas yes? (they couldn't get an F-visa for one reason or another).
There are whites and non-whites on E-2 visas. There are white and non-whites on other kinds of visas.
The E-2 visa was targeted...but none of the other visa holders were. All of the other visa holders together outnumber the E-2 visa holders many times over. So if a small proportion of foreigners (AND SOME PEOPLE OF KOREAN DESCENT) were/are subject to greater checks but the VAST majority of foreigners were not...how in the world is that racist?
Discriminatory it may be in the sense that they applied to only one group of visa holders but certainly not racist. Anyway it's a moot point because under the new guidelines these apply to ALL people teaching children whether you are a foreigner or Korean and whether you teach at a school or hakwon. |
Uh, yeah. That's why I said that it wasn't racist in my post. My point was that Steel Rails wasn't making any sense by saying a policy directed at one type of visa can't be racist. A policy targeting a specific subsection is the very definition of discrimination.[/b] These rules apply to Koreans, too? ). |
(bolding mine)
My point is that racism and discrimination (in this case) are not the same. So Mr. Steelrails was correct. If the policy is aimed at a visa and all holders of that visa have to go through the exact same procedure regardless of race...how is that racist? It would ONLY be racist if only one race could get that visa...but that's not the case here.
Yes all the NEW rules apply to Koreans as well. They have to take an AIDS test and provide a CBC as well when they are first hired. Contract teachers (not all KT's have tenure) have to do this as well.
Once you do get tenure then things may well be different. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
The E-2 visa was targeted...but none of the other visa holders were.
All of the other visa holders together outnumber the E-2 visa holders many times over.
So if a small proportion of foreigners (AND SOME PEOPLE OF KOREAN DESCENT) were/are subject to greater checks but the VAST majority of foreigners were not...how in the world is that racist?
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Because the majority of whites in this country are on the E2 visa and the majority of E2 holders are white, and that was the only visa targeted.
The visa's where whites are a minority, or not included were not targeted.
1+1=2 |
Lots of Russians here. Russians are white...were they targeted? And there are more people from ex-Soviet states here then ESL teachers (these ex-Soviets are predominately white as well
As early as 2004 about 50,000 or so of the latter were living here along with the 9000 or so Russians.
Together they outnumber the ESL teachers about 2-1 so there goes the targeting whitie theory.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Korea
| Quote: |
| In Seoul, a "Little Russia" began to form in Jung-gu's Gwanghui-dong, near Dongdaemun, in the late 1980s. Roughly 50,000 people from post-Soviet states were estimated to live in the area in 2004, down from 70,000 several years previously due to deportations of illegal immigrants |
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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:43 am Post subject: |
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edit
Last edited by slothrop on Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Andromeda
Joined: 09 Feb 2012
Location: Woodstock, GA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| I've just got to say, it is so refreshing to hear everyone talking about the reality of race (seems to be a hot potato indeed). It's important stuff, it's part of who we are (or they are depending on your perspective). From what I can see, it is part of a person's identity. I only hope that there really is some comprise in all of it. Hopefully we can remain a world of various races with a common denominator (not greed, wich is so popular), but some kind of progress. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| slothrop wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In Busan, Russians are concentrated in the former "Texas Town" in Jung-gu's Jungang-dong; roughly 200 are estimated to live in the city permanently, with several hundred more on short-term visas, along with a large transient population of Russian sailors. |
above is the rest of the quote you started from wikipedia. it seems alot of russian diaspora in korea are on short term visas(entertainers?prostitutes?) and sailors just passing through the port city of busan.
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What are you going on about? The numbers above refer to a different city altogether.
That is BUSAN you are referring to. The 50,000 I was referring live in SEOUL.
Here I'll quote it again and this time bold the relevant parts.
| Quote: |
| In Seoul, a "Little Russia" began to form in Jung-gu's Gwanghui-dong, near Dongdaemun, in the late 1980s. Roughly 50,000 people from post-Soviet states were estimated to live in the area in 2004, down from 70,000 several years previously due to deportations of illegal immigrants. |
These are people LIVING in the Seoul area..not a bunch of sailers passing through BUSAN port.
And yes some of them are ethnic Koreans but some of them are not. Regardless my point still stands that there is a huge number of "whities" not targeted. |
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