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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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 Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Modernist wrote: |
Delusion. Compare the professional visa numbers to S, Sh, or HK and it's NO contest. Most foreigners work for divisions of global companies, and virtually NONE of those divisions are in Korea. Market's not big enough compared to China or Japan, distance to major markets [e.g. Indonesia, India] too far compared to Singapore or Bangkok.
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I actually agree with Mr. Modernist here.[Gasp!]
http://nojeokhill.koreanconsulting.com/2010/10/foreign-talent-leaving-korea-due-to-three-serious-difficulties.html
As we can see in the article above, as of 2010 there were only about 20,000 foreign professionals in Korea working outside the ESL market and that number is a decline from last year.
There are not a lot of foreign professionals here relatively speaking and many end up leaving...see the problems (in the link) for why.
And they don't have to be big problems either...one guy left complaining that s/he couldn't work at this university because English wasn't spoken fluently...(what did the idiot expect?)
| Quote: |
| here is the story of an Indian professor, M. Desai (photo at left), who had signed a six-year contract to work at Seoul National University but ended up leaving Korea after only nine months, complaining mostly of the difficulties of working in an environment where English is not spoken fluently. |
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Actually, at any top, global university, I would expect English to be widely spoken and understood. English is the academic lingua franca. If the want to keep up with the latest developments in their field they should be able to read and understand English, as that is what the best new research will be published in. |
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Modernist wrote: |
Delusion. Compare the professional visa numbers to S, Sh, or HK and it's NO contest. Most foreigners work for divisions of global companies, and virtually NONE of those divisions are in Korea. Market's not big enough compared to China or Japan, distance to major markets [e.g. Indonesia, India] too far compared to Singapore or Bangkok.
[ |
I actually agree with Mr. Modernist here.[Gasp!]
http://nojeokhill.koreanconsulting.com/2010/10/foreign-talent-leaving-korea-due-to-three-serious-difficulties.html
As we can see in the article above, as of 2010 there were only about 20,000 foreign professionals in Korea working outside the ESL market and that number is a decline from last year.
There are not a lot of foreign professionals here relatively speaking and many end up leaving...see the problems (in the link) for why.
And they don't have to be big problems either...one guy left complaining that s/he couldn't work at this university because English wasn't spoken fluently...(what did the idiot expect?)
| Quote: |
| here is the story of an Indian professor, M. Desai (photo at left), who had signed a six-year contract to work at Seoul National University but ended up leaving Korea after only nine months, complaining mostly of the difficulties of working in an environment where English is not spoken fluently. |
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Actually, at any top, global university, I would expect English to be widely spoken and understood. English is the academic lingua franca. If the want to keep up with the latest developments in their field they should be able to read and understand English, as that is what the best new research will be published in. |
There is a major difference between being able to read and understand English and being able to speak it. I spent a few weeks interning at Hyundai. Many of the workers there had TOEIC scores above 850 or so and were constantly emailing foreign buyers in English, but were completely unable to speak it. I'd go as far as to say that 9 out of 10 students at SKY Universities or employees of Chaebols have a solid English reading and comprehension ability - speaking is a different story. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| Modernist wrote: |
Delusion. Compare the professional visa numbers to S, Sh, or HK and it's NO contest. Most foreigners work for divisions of global companies, and virtually NONE of those divisions are in Korea. Market's not big enough compared to China or Japan, distance to major markets [e.g. Indonesia, India] too far compared to Singapore or Bangkok.
[ |
I actually agree with Mr. Modernist here.[Gasp!]
http://nojeokhill.koreanconsulting.com/2010/10/foreign-talent-leaving-korea-due-to-three-serious-difficulties.html
As we can see in the article above, as of 2010 there were only about 20,000 foreign professionals in Korea working outside the ESL market and that number is a decline from last year.
There are not a lot of foreign professionals here relatively speaking and many end up leaving...see the problems (in the link) for why.
And they don't have to be big problems either...one guy left complaining that s/he couldn't work at this university because English wasn't spoken fluently...(what did the idiot expect?)
| Quote: |
| here is the story of an Indian professor, M. Desai (photo at left), who had signed a six-year contract to work at Seoul National University but ended up leaving Korea after only nine months, complaining mostly of the difficulties of working in an environment where English is not spoken fluently. |
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He probably expected to be able to communicate with the administration
and ended up frustrated like many do in Korea. Not being able to communicate needs or concerns or even reply or understand what
the administration is doing is not a minor issue.
While on the surface it may seem so. "English is not spoken fluently"
The problems this engenders are enormous.
Rather than go into details of all the problems, it's just easier to note the
root cause of those problems - the lack of English fluency amongst the
administrative staff.
Your comments say more about you than they do about her. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:03 am Post subject: |
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I will say that moving to a country where English is not the native language and being surprised at a language barrier related to the relative absence of English proficiency is a bit dense.
Yes it can create problems.
Yes it can be frustrating.
It should not be a surprise or shocking. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:42 am Post subject: |
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I doubt very much that the person in question expected English to be
commonplace outside of the workplace.
But she probably expected to be able to communicate
(either through translators or interpreters or something) with the administration.
I don't think that expectation is too radical, do you?
Obviously, she was frustrated and could not do so.
I also suspect that the reason she gave was not the real reason.
Given Koreans' preferential treatment of people with lighter skin, I suspect
her decision to leave had more to do with the way she was treated.
I suppose saying that she quit because they lacked fluency in English is
far more polite than saying, "they are a bunch of racist bigots".
But that is just speculation.
Last edited by some waygug-in on Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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That particular case (the professor) seems to have been his realization that the language barrier was too difficult for him to work with. I respect his choice and he had every right to leave.
On a six year contract however, a person could also try to learn Korean to a basic level to lessen the barrier. I fully understand this is not something everyone would do.
As for the rest of what you said, it was in your own words speculation so lets leave it at that. |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
On a six year contract
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Holy crap! That's a marathon. |
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oppa637
Joined: 05 Dec 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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My company is hiring and you don't need to know korean.
You do need to be an engineer though.
So jobs are out there that don't require Korean. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:47 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
That particular case (the professor) seems to have been her realization that the language barrier was too difficult for her to work with. I respect her choice and she had every right to leave.
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Fixed that for you. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| byrddogs wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
That particular case (the professor) seems to have been her realization that the language barrier was too difficult for her to work with. I respect her choice and she had every right to leave.
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Fixed that for you. |
Thanks, much appreciated.
My mistake. |
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nate1983
Joined: 30 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:13 am Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
first, you do not NEED korean to work outside of teaching here. this is just propagated by teachers who want to get out of the teaching world but don't know how. sure it helps, but it is not 100% necessary. i don't have a single close foreigner teacher friend here, yet i have a lot of foreigner friends here. while some were previously teachers, they all now work in the corporate and private sectors and most of them speak little to no korean. as i said before, it's all about networking.
second, foreign professionals ARE very common in korea. seoul just happens to be massive and they are scattered all over. while singapore might give you the impression it's expat heavy (and it is and does) it's because singapore is tiny and they all pretty much hit up clark quay in the evenings.
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I worked in a large international corporation (financial sector) in Seoul for about 5 months after transferring from our NY office. I had previously taught in Korea where I also went to language school.
First of all, while a lot of day-to-day business can be done with no Korean language ability, in most offices you'll need at least basic skills to understand how to log in to the computer and perform other rudimentary tasks. Also, there will assuredly be people you'll have to communicate with who have weaker English skills, and this is where a higher level of ability comes in handy (unless you're happy having a colleague phone the IT helpdesk for you every time). Also, you could be in a role (as I was) that requires a sufficient level to read reports and navigate websites, even though most of my work was done in English.
I wouldn't say foreign professionals are very common in Korea. I was the only one on my floor of 300+ people, and this was with a foreign company. I certainly did run into a fair number - a lot more than what I remember just 3 years ago - but it's ridiculous to draw comparisons to HK or Singapore (where I live now). |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
| [Your comments say more about you than they do about her. |
Yes...they say that my comments about her are spot-on.
Some research would have told her that English is not likely to be spoken fluently at the majority of workplaces in a country where English is a foreign language (as opposed being a native or second language). And that this is particularly true of certain countries including Korea.
I think we all know this...why couldn't this professor person figure it out?
The level of English that her contacts and go-betweens used to get her over there should have been a tip-off at the very least. |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
| most foreigners here have no idea how to get ahead because they are from small(er) towns and cities. |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| some waygug-in wrote: |
| I suppose saying that she quit because they lacked fluency in English is far more polite than saying, "they are a bunch of racist bigots". |
Or is it really because she was unable to adapt to the local culture and learn the language? |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 5:31 am Post subject: |
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Who knows? I guess she is the only one who can answer that question.
I just don't think people have the right to judge for her decision (as in call her an idiot).
She obviously felt that whatever the money they were paying was not worth the challenges she was facing.
I'm sure she had better offers elsewhere and decided to go for something
else.
Call it poor planning on her part if you want to. But don't call her an
"idiot". |
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