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ghostrider
Joined: 27 Jun 2011
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 Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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"To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws."
-John Adams (second president of the United States), A Defence of the Constitutions of the United States 475 (1787-1788)
Go visit some African or Middle Eastern country that is a caught in state of perpetual civil war- a place where citizens amass their own private arsenals and form their own military forces. That is the reality of what Visitorq is advocating and what Adams warned about. Some people claim that guns are needed to protect us from the government. But who's going to protect us from people who become tyrannical and have easy access to weapons? A lot of dictators such as Mao started out as people who had easy access to guns. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah you better watch out for all those local warlords with private armies in the States, right? |
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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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edit
Last edited by slothrop on Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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| slothrop wrote: |
| fermentation wrote: |
| Yeah you better watch out for all those local warlords with private armies in the States, right? |
you should be more careful of the DC warlords with their publicly funded armies.LOL |
Probably not just DC either. One of things I hate about the US is the militarization of the police force. I'd be more afraid of cops than a private gun owner if I lived in the States. |
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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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edit
Last edited by slothrop on Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:53 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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I was pessimistic about America when I was living there and looking from out the outside in, its worse than I suspect.
I think we're too far gone to get back any greatness. I think we're on a slide downwards and the only question is how fast. I don't see any way we'll recover. Mainly because too many people are too complacent. Too many folks either don't care or are too scared to do anything. Apathy, etc. Look at the Occupy thing. These are middle class folks out there but the police in just about every city treating them as if they are rioters. I have to think its a coordinated response to it because the treatment is happening in so many cities.
I also notice how the media and especially the right wing have spoken up against them.
I hope I'm wrong. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
And please, give me a break about fighting the government. You can't afford an M-1 tank, an Air Force, C&C, the logistical supplies, and all of that which would be necessary to take on the U.S. Armed Forces. |
This is obnoxious. All someone needs is a handgun to protect their home from intruders, be it a burglar or a bad cop.
Actually a handgun likely would be unable to penetrate any vest the cop would be wearing. Sorry, but your handgun wouldn't save you from the rest of the cops. It's like saying you need a baseball bat to defend yourself from a bear. It might work, but odds are its just going to tick it off and lead to your utter mauling and dismembering
Your "take on the entire U.S. armed forces" bit is an obvious strawman. |
No, no I agree with the ludicrousness of it. But you get these types that say "We need guns to protect against a tyrannical government". That's just retarded.
Now, as far as defending your home, like I said, you might as well be packing some blackpowder Civil War era revolvers or something like a LeMat. There's not really much of a difference between them and a modern handgun, and I think if you put forth those as being legitimate guns you'd take the wind out of the "Founding Fathers couldn't conceive of AK-47s" argument. Of course conversely, for the anti-gun types, since their isn't that much of a difference between a revolver that would have been in use during the lifetime of people who fought in the Revolution and a modern handgun, railing about certain kinds of guns comes across as a bit overdramatic.
| Quote: |
| One of things I hate about the US is the militarization of the police force. I'd be more afraid of cops than a private gun owner if I lived in the States. |
Don't worry the cops are probably just as afraid of lawyers and civil suits as you are of them. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:04 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
And please, give me a break about fighting the government. You can't afford an M-1 tank, an Air Force, C&C, the logistical supplies, and all of that which would be necessary to take on the U.S. Armed Forces. |
This is obnoxious. All someone needs is a handgun to protect their home from intruders, be it a burglar or a bad cop.
Actually a handgun likely would be unable to penetrate any vest the cop would be wearing. Sorry, but your handgun wouldn't save you from the rest of the cops. It's like saying you need a baseball bat to defend yourself from a bear. It might work, but odds are its just going to tick it off and lead to your utter mauling and dismembering
Your "take on the entire U.S. armed forces" bit is an obvious strawman. |
No, no I agree with the ludicrousness of it. But you get these types that say "We need guns to protect against a tyrannical government". That's just retarded. |
Well that depends on the numbers involved. The number of police and military who would be willing to support a tyrannical government would likely be pretty low. The number of civilians willing to die in opposition to this government could be fairly high (Americans are temperamental). Obviously this scales with "level of tyranny".
So if the number of Americans willing to die while taking one or more tyranny-supporting police/military with them were to be higher than the number of tyranny-supporting police/military... then such weapons would be effective. I'm sure a civilian legal fully automatic 12 gauge shotgun with a 20 round drum magazine would put down at least one home-invading tyrant, vest or no. |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:01 am Post subject: |
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| Vests won't stop someone with a gun from killing you. Even with a shot in the arm you can bleed to death. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 2:29 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
you might as well be packing some blackpowder Civil War era revolvers or something like a LeMat. There's not really much of a difference between them and a modern handgun |
Except for reliability, accuracy, firing rate, ergonomics and weight.
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| Don't worry the cops are probably just as afraid of lawyers and civil suits as you are of them. |
Not so sure about that. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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geldedgoat
Joined: 05 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:07 am Post subject: |
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That article had a great start but a terrible finish.
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| Are Second Amendment rights more precious than Fourth Amendment rights or Fifth Amendment rights? Are they more important than First Amendment rights or Eighth Amendment rights? I'd love the president and Mitt Romney to answer those questions and to explain why the War on Terror seems to have bypassed the Second Amendment even as it has redefined the ways that many other constitutional amendments apply to our lives. |
I don't think you'll find too many people here willing to laud the efforts to undermine the other nine amendments and see their erosion as a valid reason to attack other rights.
I can't say I'm too terribly surprised to see you post something like that, though, considering your first post here declared that a gun is nothing more than a 'murder weapon.' 
| recessiontime wrote: |
| Vests won't stop someone with a gun from killing you. Even with a shot in the arm you can bleed to death. |
And even if you hit someone directly in a vest, you can still stop him. Vests stop (most) bullets from penetrating and diffuse the force somewhat, but they don't entirely stop the force. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:23 am Post subject: |
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Depending on the caliber and type of vest, the bullet can penetrate the vest or at least drop the guy.
Anyway, thought this article was relevant to this thread.
http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bios/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx#.UA2VvEpa_7E.facebook
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Gun carrying man ends stabbing spree at Salt Lake grocery store
SALT LAKE CITY (ABC 4 News) - A citizen with a gun stopped a knife wielding man as he began stabbing people Thursday evening at the downtown Salt Lake City Smith's store.
Police say the suspect purchased a knife inside the store and then turned it into a weapon. Smith's employee Dorothy Espinoza says, "He pulled it out and stood outside the Smiths in the foyer. And just started stabbing people and yelling you killed my people. You killed my people."
Espinoza says, the knife wielding man seriously injured two people. "There is blood all over. One got stabbed in the stomach and got stabbed in the head and held his hands and got stabbed all over the arms."
Then, before the suspect could find another victim - a citizen with a gun stopped the madness. "A guy pulled gun on him and told him to drop his weapon or he would shoot him. So, he dropped his weapon and the people from Smith's grabbed him."
By the time officers arrived the suspect had been subdued by employees and shoppers. Police had high praise for gun carrying man who ended the hysteria. Lt. Brian Purvis said, "This was a volatile situation that could have gotten worse. We can only assume from what we saw it could have gotten worse. He was definitely in the right place at the right time."
Dozens of other shoppers, who too could have become victims, are also thankful for the gun carrying man. And many, like Danylle Julian, are still in shock from the experience. "Scary actually. Really scary. Five minutes before I walk out to my car. It could have been me."
Police say right now they have no idea what caused the suspect to go on the dangerous rampage. (We will update as soon as we learn new information.)
So far, police have not released the names of the suspect, the victims or the man who pulled the gun. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Well that depends on the numbers involved. The number of police and military who would be willing to support a tyrannical government would likely be pretty low. The number of civilians willing to die in opposition to this government could be fairly high (Americans are temperamental). Obviously this scales with "level of tyranny".
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With national elections scheduled every two years and the right of amending the Constitution, isn't it a little hard to make the case for 'tyranny'? The simple fact of losing an election does not amount to tyranny.
We used to believe in majority rule, with protection of minority rights. The current situation has introduced tyranny by the minority, and I submit that it is a crisis. The abuse of filibustering, the assertion that corporations are people, and voter suppression laws are all attempts by the minority to negate the will of the majority. So are the attempts to claim that we are a Republic, not a Democracy. It's clever to say that a Republic means the rule of law, but WHOSE law? Laws made by an Aristocracy of blood? Theocratic Republics? Oligarchies? We as a country decided about 200 years ago that we would be a Democratic Republic...that has struggled NOT to be an oligarchic republic.
Currently, the oligarchs seem to be winning. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Well that depends on the numbers involved. The number of police and military who would be willing to support a tyrannical government would likely be pretty low. The number of civilians willing to die in opposition to this government could be fairly high (Americans are temperamental). Obviously this scales with "level of tyranny". |
With national elections scheduled every two years and the right of amending the Constitution, isn't it a little hard to make the case for 'tyranny'? The simple fact of losing an election does not amount to tyranny. |
It sounds like you consider the current U.S. government to be more tyrannical than I do. I just wanted to highlight the potential value of armed U.S. citizens in a truly tyrannical situation that may be decades or even centuries down the road. |
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