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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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 Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| visitorq wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| recessiontime wrote: |
| I'm pretty sure libertarians like Ron Paul want separation of state and economy, just as we had separation of church and state before. It's just that coming out and saying it right now is suicide. |
Interesting.
I see his ideas as exactly the opposite of your view. I see him backing the union of state and big business. Further, I see his alliance with social conservatives as a tactical, not a strategic, alliance in order to gain his highly destructive objective. |
Yeah but that's because you have literally no clue what you're talking about. All you ever do is blather on about nonsense, and when it comes to the above you couldn't be more wrong...
It would be impossible for you to back up your absurd claims about Ron Paul (ie. him backing the union of state and big business, a la Obamney) with even a single shred of evidence, because there isn't any. His voting record in congress is crystal clear and proves the exact opposite of what you've said. |
For example? |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2012 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| It would be impossible for you to back up your absurd claims about Ron Paul (ie. him backing the union of state and big business, a la Obamney) with even a single shred of evidence, because there isn't any. His voting record in congress is crystal clear and proves the exact opposite of what you've said. |
For example? |
Well, you've claimed that Paul supports Government/Business cooperation and rather than providing evidence, you're asking for an example where he opposes it. Unfair though that may be, I'll give it a shot:
Paul opposes regulations that allow big businesses to write rules that smaller businesses can't follow. One small example is his support for raw milk producers. Some people want to drink raw milk for perceived health reasons, others (as in the linked case) for religious reasons. In any case, raw milk from a small farm with just cows cuts into profits from larger farms that can pasteurize their milk.
On a larger scale, Paul opposed the bailing out of financial institutions that made big bets and lost. While some would argue that those bailouts were in the best interests of the economy, there's no denying that a vote against giving financial institutions billions in taxpayer dollars is a vote against the government supporting big business (and big campaign donors).
On a similar note, he opposes government internet regulations which would open the door to large companies writing the rules of the internet.
Anyway, if you do find some evidence showing Paul supporting the union of government and business, feel free to post it. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:21 am Post subject: |
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I think part of the difficulty of this debate is that the two sides have differing views of what is meant by the phrase "union of state and big business". From Yata's liberal perspective, complete de-regulation would be giving business everything they want, and thus would constitute the government acting as a sort of errand-boy for business, thus putting the two sectors in "union".
From the libertarian perspective advocated by visitorq et al, deregulation, as it involves the government taking almost no involvment in the affairs of business, means an end to co-operation between the public and private sectors, and hence the "separation of state and business".
Now, as to comm's challenge...
| Quote: |
| Anyway, if you do find some evidence showing Paul supporting the union of government and business, feel free to post it. |
Going by what I take to be visitorq's understanding of "union between government and business", I note the following from Counterpunch's coverage of a Republican debate last year...
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Paul hates every manifestation of government. I don't think he cares much for immigrants from south of the border either. I didn't hear a cry of outrage from him when most of his fellow debaters were calling for a heavier federal presence �"boots on the ground," drones and a continuous fence along the U.S.-Mexican border. And he seems to favor the Keystone XL pipeline, even though, as my coeditor Jeffrey St. Clair points out to me, it will require one of the largest and most aggressive eminent domain actions since the construction of the interstate highways. Opposition to eminent domain is bedrock for any libertarian.
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I didn't see that debate, but assuming Cockburn's description is accurate:
Yes, if Paul supports Keystone XL, and if St. Clair is correct that KXL would lead to a massive application of eminent domain, then indeed, Paul is supporting some pretty strong government intervention in the economy(likely against the property rights of landowners), on behalf of a private business.
I suppose it's possible that Paul has some method in mind for building KXL in such a way so that all transfers of land usage are undertaken in a completely voluntary fashion. I'd be interested to know what that might be.
Also possible that Cockburn is mis-stating Paul's views, though as I mentioned in my recent obituary, he was generally one of the people on the left more sympthetic to libertarianism, even the American property-based version of it. So it doesn't seem likely to me that he would misrepresent what Paul was saying.
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I think part of the difficulty of this debate is that the two sides have differing views of what is meant by the phrase "union of state and big business". From Yata's liberal perspective, complete de-regulation would be giving business everything they want, and thus would constitute the government acting as a sort of errand-boy for business, thus putting the two sectors in "union".
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That pretty well sums it up from my perspective.
Quibble: It doesn't have to be 'complete' de-regulation.
I see government as the arbiter between factions with legitimate interests in whatever question arises in the public sphere. The 'equalizer'. Imperfect as it is, government is better than nothing, which is how I see the vision of the other side. At least I have a voice in government (I know, I'm an idealist.)
I would go further than 'errand-boy'. My respect for the 'law' has been declining in recent years. Down and down and down. Law is just the expression of the interests of the moneyed class, supported by the guns it can deploy. Lawyers are just the co-opted servants of the moneyed class, for the most part.
I'm just a peon English teacher. The invasions and limitations of my freedom come, by far, from my employer. They set the time I have to work. They set the regulations of what I have to wear...and therefore where and how I spend a part of my income to meet their requirements. They tell me when I can have lunch. They choose where I can live. They offer me a contract and tell me I can take it or leave it.
This is not freedom.
In the system set up by 'business', I have the freedom to accept servitude or the freedom to live in a box under a bridge. That is not freedom in any meaningful sense of the term. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:41 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I'm just a peon English teacher. The invasions and limitations of my freedom come, by far, from my employer. They set the time I have to work. They set the regulations of what I have to wear...and therefore where and how I spend a part of my income to meet their requirements. They tell me when I can have lunch. They choose where I can live. They offer me a contract and tell me I can take it or leave it.
This is not freedom.
In the system set up by 'business', I have the freedom to accept servitude or the freedom to live in a box under a bridge. That is not freedom in any meaningful sense of the term. |
What a pitiful attitude. Of course it's freedom, in every meaning of the word. Nobody is cracking a whip over your head or physically confining you. You are free to do the job you willingly signed a contract to do, or to quit. You are free to find another job. You are free to work really hard and perhaps get promoted to a management level if you're good and experienced enough. You're free to save enough money (or build enough credit), after gaining enough knowledge and expertise to start your own language school. Nobody is stopping you (except likely the government, who will try to hammer you with taxes and fees, and licensing restrictions if you try to improve your lot in life).
In short, you are free to do as you please. What you aren't is entitled to other peoples' money. Nobody owes you anything. If you're content making a perfectly adequate living as an English teacher, then that's great. If not, it's time to stop whining and making excuses, and start working harder. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
I'm just a peon English teacher. The invasions and limitations of my freedom come, by far, from my employer. They set the time I have to work. They set the regulations of what I have to wear...and therefore where and how I spend a part of my income to meet their requirements. They tell me when I can have lunch. They choose where I can live. They offer me a contract and tell me I can take it or leave it.
This is not freedom.
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Then why did you agree to be employed? |
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