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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| I did see a policeman do a u-turn across traffic so he could stop and talk to two middle-school boys about crossing without the green walk light. (The traffic light was still green, however.) All the while ignoring all the cars running the red light. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 11:20 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| mayorgc wrote: |
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OK TUM, how about you try to defend the police or spin the above into something positive.
TUM defends the police while the President himself criticizes them.
wow..... |
I suggest you read again. I did not defend the police I merely pointed out that they did not do as you claimed, nothing.
Drop the histrionics please.
How about you provide these countless stories that you so kindly offered to furnish us with?
A round dozen should do for starters...seeing as how there are literally "countless" stories, a dozen should take no time at all. |
So when I said "nothing", you took it literally? As in they sat in their chairs and just waited and did nothing?
I know you are smarter than that sir. You know exactly what I meant when I said they did nothing in that story. Nothing is being used as a figure of speech. Obviously they did "something", it just that their "something" really sucked when compared to other Police.
Actually, I do believe you are defending the police.
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| I'd say this case is not a good example of the cops "doing nothing". |
The story that I posted is the absolute best case of cops "doing nothing". The fact that you even tried to defend that instance is mind blowing. The president even took a shot at the police.
Without even seaching hard, I linked up 4 different stories where the cops really dropped the ball. The stories that I linked to are not just about "crappy cops". We all know that crappy cops exist everywhere. The stories that I linked to relate to kids/women getting attacked and korean cops doing nothing. Check out the title of this thread.
Now, if you really want me to find a million stories, then no, I will not be able to find a million stories. But if you want me to find maybe 10, then it'll take me some time.
The fact that there's even one story like the one I posted previously is sickening enough.
Not all police forces are equal. Some are better/worse than others. The fact that I think (and a lot of others too) that Korean cops are terrible isn't exactly such a wild concept.
The fact that you tried to defend the cops in the above story just blows my mind. |
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| markhan makes a great point regarding a lot of users here making social comments on Korea when in fact they typically do not speak the language, have few to no Korean friends and hang out with fellow westerners for the most part. |
That's pretty condescending from a poster that doesn't even live in Korea any more.
There have been a couple of recent domestic violence cases where the police have made some major mistakes. In one case after the police did next to nothing the husband beat his wife to death. I've also seen many police men sleeping on the job and my experiences with them have been shocking. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:18 am Post subject: |
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I'm not slagging off the K police because I think the number of toddlers/children who are featured in 'Gone Missing' posters etc seems disproportionately high in a peninsula of only 48 million people.
Something else is at work here - the unbelievably thick attitude of Korean parents who don't watch their children, let them run along streets unsupervised especially when the footpaths are narrow, even let them hang around the edges of busy streets and rivers, and generally let them do too much on their own. I realise this is the 'village' mentality still at work but it's not that kind of Korea anymore and hasn't been for some time.
Where the attitude is not thick it is also rooted in the past - seeing schoolkids even if they are post primary school walking home late at night from hagwons, very late in the case of high school girls and boys, and going off for other reasons into the night is sometimes concerning. It seems Korea has not caught up to the reality that is mass urbanised life.
Before you all say that it's safer than our home countries, in some ways yes. However, the undeveloped social attitudes that allow men to hang around parks and schools perving at children and teenagers and there or elswhere w-nking off in public with no police called a lot of the time, contribute to child abuse and disappearances with no counter measures apparent in too many cases. There are children's parks in my country that men cannot enter unless they are with a group or partner, in other countries I've lived in too.
Korea needs to catch up and curtail the tremendous liberties given to oddballs in the parks and streets as well as other public places. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:28 am Post subject: |
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| Seoulman69 wrote: |
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| markhan makes a great point regarding a lot of users here making social comments on Korea when in fact they typically do not speak the language, have few to no Korean friends and hang out with fellow westerners for the most part. |
That's pretty condescending from a poster that doesn't even live in Korea any more.
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Lol. Good point. What's funny is that some people not only speak fluent Korean and live here, some are actually Korean citizens.
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| There have been several recent domestic violence cases where the police have made some major mistakes. In one case after the police did next to nothing the husband beat his wife to death. I've also seen many police men sleeping on the job and my experiences with them have been shocking |
The people do not take the opinions foreign posters on Dave's seriously, all they have to do is go to naver and type in "Korean police" to see Koreans themselves citing countless shining examples of Korea's finest. |
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| The people do not take the opinions foreign posters on Dave's seriously, all they have to do is go to naver and type in "Korean police" to see Koreans themselves citing countless shining examples of Korea's finest. |
Good point. All of the negative stories I hear about Korean police are from my Korean friends. If you think foreigners complain a lot about Korea you should meet my friends.  |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:39 am Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| mayorgc wrote: |
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OK TUM, how about you try to defend the police or spin the above into something positive.
TUM defends the police while the President himself criticizes them.
wow..... |
I suggest you read again. I did not defend the police I merely pointed out that they did not do as you claimed, nothing.
Drop the histrionics please.
How about you provide these countless stories that you so kindly offered to furnish us with?
A round dozen should do for starters...seeing as how there are literally "countless" stories, a dozen should take no time at all. |
So when I said "nothing", you took it literally? As in they sat in their chairs and just waited and did nothing?
I know you are smarter than that sir. You know exactly what I meant when I said they did nothing in that story. Nothing is being used as a figure of speech. Obviously they did "something", it just that their "something" really sucked when compared to other Police.
Actually, I do believe you are defending the police.
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You believe erroneously sir. Then again you are completely free to do.
When you said "nothing" I took you at your word as one gentleman to another. I was not aware you had a different definition of the word as it appears in most dictionaries.
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| Obviously they did "something", it just that their "something" really sucked when compared to other Police. |
See if you had said this in the first place I would have agreed with you in that case. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| Seoulman69 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| markhan makes a great point regarding a lot of users here making social comments on Korea when in fact they typically do not speak the language, have few to no Korean friends and hang out with fellow westerners for the most part. |
That's pretty condescending from a poster that doesn't even live in Korea any more.
There have been a couple of recent domestic violence cases where the police have made some major mistakes. In one case after the police did next to nothing the husband beat his wife to death. I've also seen many police men sleeping on the job and my experiences with them have been shocking. |
It is actually pretty accurate because frankly speaking the vast majority of foreign teachers in Korea are there for 1-2 years and have no plans to stay longer. As such, it makes little sense to them to learn the language as it does require a lot of time and energy. I for one can see the logic in that decision and have no problem understanding the choice.
That does not change the fact that a lot of them will make sweeping social comments on the country and the people when they do not speak or read the language.
As for your experience with police being shocking, that is your experience and I do not doubt it. My experience with cops in Korea was not shocking. They behaved like cops do and when I had to deal with them ( a few times over the years) they did their job. Some were a-holes, some were super nice and others were just neutral.
Now, is not of reasonable to think cops vary in quality from precinct to precinct and from city to city?
I know cops in smaller korean towns are far more lax and loose vs Seoul police for example so how do you reconcile that with your: cops are crap in Korea stand? |
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:33 am Post subject: |
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It is actually pretty accurate because frankly speaking the vast majority of foreign teachers in Korea are there for 1-2 years and have no plans to stay longer. As such, it makes little sense to them to learn the language as it does require a lot of time and energy. I for one can see the logic in that decision and have no problem understanding the choice.
That does not change the fact that a lot of them will make sweeping social comments on the country and the people when they do not speak or read the language.
As for your experience with police being shocking, that is your experience and I do not doubt it. My experience with cops in Korea was not shocking. They behaved like cops do and when I had to deal with them ( a few times over the years) they did their job. Some were a-holes, some were super nice and others were just neutral.
Now, is not of reasonable to think cops vary in quality from precinct to precinct and from city to city?
I know cops in smaller korean towns are far more lax and loose vs Seoul police for example so how do you reconcile that with your: cops are crap in Korea stand? |
Looking at the join date for most of the posters in this thread debunks your idea that the majority of complainers here are short term residents with no knowledge of Korea or Korean society.
Yet even if they are only here for 2 years I would still think they are more informed about present day Korea than a man who hasn't lived in the country since 2008 and only returns for vacations. Do you really think what you read on the internet is more valuable than peoples real life interactions? You don't even try to be reasonable about any topic that criticizes Korea. You protect Korea to the death, even when the Korean president has criticized the countries police force. You are so insistent on protecting Korea that you seem to have lost all analytical skills and instead post condescending and biased views which are comically out of touch with what is happening in Korea.
It is not just myself who has had negative experiences with the police force here. It is native Koreans, not esl teachers, who have regaled me with numerous stories about police incompetence. To deny that the police here are below par goes against the current Korean public consensus and it goes against the evidence shown in the mistakes the police themselves have made in recent cases. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Seoulman69 wrote: |
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It is actually pretty accurate because frankly speaking the vast majority of foreign teachers in Korea are there for 1-2 years and have no plans to stay longer. As such, it makes little sense to them to learn the language as it does require a lot of time and energy. I for one can see the logic in that decision and have no problem understanding the choice.
That does not change the fact that a lot of them will make sweeping social comments on the country and the people when they do not speak or read the language.
As for your experience with police being shocking, that is your experience and I do not doubt it. My experience with cops in Korea was not shocking. They behaved like cops do and when I had to deal with them ( a few times over the years) they did their job. Some were a-holes, some were super nice and others were just neutral.
Now, is not of reasonable to think cops vary in quality from precinct to precinct and from city to city?
I know cops in smaller korean towns are far more lax and loose vs Seoul police for example so how do you reconcile that with your: cops are crap in Korea stand? |
Looking at the join date for most of the posters in this thread debunks your idea that the majority of complainers here are short term residents with no knowledge of Korea or Korean society.
Yet even if they are only here for 2 years I would still think they are more informed about present day Korea than a man who hasn't lived in the country since 2008 and only returns for vacations. Do you really think what you read on the internet is more valuable than peoples real life interactions? You don't even try to be reasonable about any topic that criticizes Korea. You protect Korea to the death, even when the Korean president has criticized the countries police force. You are so insistent on protecting Korea that you seem to have lost all analytical skills and instead post condescending and biased views which are comically out of touch with what is happening in Korea.
It is not just myself who has had negative experiences with the police force here. It is native Koreans, not esl teachers, who have regaled me with numerous stories about police incompetence. To deny that the police here are below par goes against the current Korean public consensus and it goes against the evidence shown in the mistakes the police themselves have made in recent cases. |
While it possible that a short term teacher is well informed on present-state Korea, I am sorry but I do not just return to Korea on vacation, I do business there (consulting) and as a part of my public sector job. This means some trips to Korea for work, maintaining contacts there and so on. Also, I have a lot of friends and professional contacts in Korean ESL-TEFL so thanks but I am well aware of the the present-state of things in Korea.
I will be happy to discuss criticism of Korea with you or others if said criticism is actually constructive (ie aims at finding solutions) and is not just a thin cover to bash away with general sweeping statements.
So lets discuss this, the police in Korea are below par in comparison to what exactly?
What evidence or facts do you have about their incompetence? I do mean facts, reports, acticles and so on, not online bravado and rumours.
I have no problem seeing that cops can be bad in Korea (crap I said that just before). The key to productive debates and discussion is to present measured arguments that avoid falling into blanket statements whose main goal is to belittle, demean or insult.
On the knowledge of Korea issue: it is NORMAL for short term foreign teachers to invest little in learning Korean. I have no problem with that as the energy and effort required may be seen as not worth it for a short 1-2 year stay. Furthermore, in most cities in Korea, an expat can get by and live decently for 1-2 years without knowing Korean. Again, no big deal. What can be an issue is when such people start voicing social commentary on Korea. This to me is the same thing as a short term worker in my part of Canada or a brand new immigrant who starts mouthing off about Canada before learning English (or French) or bothering to understand the place. In both cases, all that comes out is ignorance based on surface impressions.
Since it seems it may restore some sort of balance here and may just help you better grasp something: I dislike a lot of things about Korea just like I dislike a lot of things about Canada. I will voice these dislikes with no reservation and have done so often in the past. What I will NOT do is rant, rave and throw about blanket statements based on one or two bad experiences. I also try to understand WHY stuff happens before I go on and pass judgement.
So, for example, my first Departemental Supervisor at the University I used to work for was a moron (he was Korean). He was too set in his ways and tended to treat the teaching staff with a cavalier attitude. He took the short term planning thing that sometimes happens in Korea to an extreme which left the teaching staff running to meet deadlines and finish tasks with little time. I found that inneffective and demoralizing for some of my co-workers. We discussed it and he changed somewhat but not all that much. We learned to cope with this and adapted and then he left and was replaced by a more competent administrator.
Now, do you think based on this idiot that I would have gone off the rails and stated "Korean bosses are @#!@#$"? Nope, that would be ignorant and dumb.
Same thing for me applies to cops by the way. When I dealt with them it was good, bad and ugly. It varied so much from one city to another for example. My wife (Korean) has one horrible experience with a cop in 2005. It was epically bad and costs us money and time. She also had nothing but praise for a local patrol cop who ended up saving her cousin from severe injuries due to a fight at a nearby bar in 2007.
I would not tolerate sweeping comments made about Canadians by a Korean anymore than the thinly veiled racism that is spued about by some in here under the guise of social commentary about Korea.
So you want to criticize, go ahead but why not do so in a measured and constructive manner? |
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Seoulman69
Joined: 14 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| So lets discuss this, the police in Korea are below par in comparison to what exactly? |
They are below par for the woman who phoned begging them to help her just before she was murdered and cut into pieces. They are below par for not helping the woman who went to the police station to report her drunkard husband for spousal abuse and was then murdered . They are below par for the other woman involved in the recent spousal abuse case. They are below par for allowing any of their officers to fall asleep while on duty. They are below par for only catching a sexual predator once the president had nationally shamed them. They are below par in the opinion of the majority of Koreans.
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| I am sorry but I do not just return to Korea on vacation, I do business there (consulting) and as a part of my public sector job. This means some trips to Korea for work, maintaining contacts there and so on. Also, I have a lot of friends and professional contacts in Korean ESL-TEFL so thanks but I am well aware of the the present-state of things in Korea. |
I maintain contacts with people back home but it is no substitute for actually living in a country. Does your consultation work involve discussing the police force in Korea that is so incompetent that it recently complained that it was being abused by citizens?
Changes need to be made that improve the Korean police force from the top to the bottom. They need to be more professional and start acting in a way that people will respect. My first suggestion would be to actually try to find a woman who phones you begging for help instead of waiting till the next day. My next suggestion would be to investigate cases of spousal abuse rather than ignoring it or sweeping it under the carpet. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:57 am Post subject: |
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Improvements can and should be made in the police force. I agree. Their procedures could use some updating as does their training.
As for the opinion Koreans have of their police force, it varies a lot but lately (few years) there have been demands for changes from people in various cities in how the cops do business.
As for contacts, my consulting involves professionals in various fields but I also keep in touch with teachers, developers and other people working in Education (foreign and Korean) as I often work on collaborative projects with them since I enjoy helping out and contributing when asked. So I am not talking about "keeping in touch with pals and friends" but about professional relationships in various fields. I worked in Korea for 11 years and in that time made lots of friends, professional contacts and so on. I like to keep active and will not refuse working on projects with people in Korea if I have the time. So there you have it.
My whole point here is that constructive criticism that is measured and in pespective is great but that on here it seldom sees the light of day and is all too often replaced with simple negative criticism aimed at anything but discussing solutions or improvement.
Take care. |
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:43 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
What I will NOT do is rant, rave and throw about blanket statements based on one or two bad experiences. I also try to understand WHY stuff happens before I go on and pass judgement.
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I stubbed my toe on my couch in America once. Based on my first hand experience, I am led to believe that American furniture is poorly designed and has flaws that lead to increased toe-stubbing. |
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Newbie
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| sml7285 wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
What I will NOT do is rant, rave and throw about blanket statements based on one or two bad experiences. I also try to understand WHY stuff happens before I go on and pass judgement.
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I stubbed my toe on my couch in America once. Based on my first hand experience, I am led to believe that American furniture is poorly designed and has flaws that lead to increased toe-stubbing. |
I do like your logic here. BUT, that furniture was most assuredly made in China, so it's really Chinese furniture that sucks.
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Newbie wrote: |
| sml7285 wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
What I will NOT do is rant, rave and throw about blanket statements based on one or two bad experiences. I also try to understand WHY stuff happens before I go on and pass judgement.
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I stubbed my toe on my couch in America once. Based on my first hand experience, I am led to believe that American furniture is poorly designed and has flaws that lead to increased toe-stubbing. |
I do like your logic here. BUT, that furniture was most assuredly made in China, so it's really Chinese furniture that sucks.
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'twas IKEA. Superior Swedish engineering, my ass. |
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