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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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 Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:58 am Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
Exactly the same as in soccer, before they made changes.
Disqualify them and change the schedule to prevent it from happening again. |
I think it's an embarrassment; I'm too competitive to ever throw a game. However - I don't think that throwing a game for a better seeding is dq worthy unless the players are bribed into doing so. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
Here's the explanation from NBC Sports:
"After a series of double hits, Heidemann scored in the final second to apparently take the victory and advance to the gold medal match. But it turns out that the timer had �stuck� � meaning that Heidemann�s last hit should not have counted. Sudden death should have ended in another tie, and Shin should have won."
If you're still confused, the aptly named article "A South-Korean Fencer Got Screwed By A Clock That Got �Stuck,� And We�re Here To Explain" is here:
http://www.sportsgrid.com/media/a-south-korean-fencer-got-screwed-by-a-clock-that-got-stuck-and-were-here-to-explain/
You keep trying to make it sound like the Koreans were unfairly pouting and whining, because you hate Korea/Koreans, but those are the facts. She won the match fair and square, but for a technical malfunction. The judges screwed up, which is why FIE announced that they will award her a medal to try to make up for their mistake. |
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Thank you for that link. Now, finally, I have an explanation from the media of what the hell was going on. Most articles don't bother to explain the situation fully. Sorry, Koreans, if I hesitated to embrace your explanation given your previous record of over the top protesting. Anyway, it seems that Shin Aram would have won but for a malfunction in the clock (how in the hell does that happen??!!) due to the really weird fencing rule of randomly (what kind of stupid rule is that???!!!) assigning a win to one fencer when the score is tied.
Why on earth the judges did not recognize Shin Aram as the winner given the stopped clock, I can not fathom.
Now the whole country is incensed with the London Olympics and blaming the UK, or Europeans, or white people generally ('Yankees' by the way, we're all 'Yankees' as far as Koreans are concerned, people), just because of a decision that would have been shrugged off at an event of less importance. I'm sick of these Olympic controversies. If the world isn't capable of true sportsmanship in the Olympics then maybe we should abolish it.
The trouble also seems to be that the IOC stands by judges' decisions even when they're clearly wrong. By offering Shin Aram an award they are recognizing that they were at fault, while at the same time standing by the judges' decisions presumably on the principle that we have to accept judges' rulings no matter what.
Should it, or should it not, be part of sportsmanship to accept judges' decisions even when they are wrong, assuming they are made in good faith but that mistakes are unavoidable? This is a country that does not accept that judges or teachers can simply be fallible sometimes, or that an element of subjectivity cannot always be eliminated, but demands perfection and sometimes assumes unfair bias when decisions do not go their way. Is this because Koreans have experienced blatant bias from teachers far too often and are projecting this upon others or are they right that we should demand higher standards from decision makers? |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| Privateer wrote: |
abolish it.
The trouble also seems to be that the IOC stands by judges' decisions even when they're clearly wrong. By offering Shin Aram an award they are recognizing that they were at fault, while at the same time standing by the judges' decisions presumably on the principle that we have to accept judges' rulings no matter what.
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The IOC is not offering her a medal. The FIE (fencing governing body) is. |
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Some of the Mothers Said
Joined: 01 Jul 2008
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| sml7285 wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
Exactly the same as in soccer, before they made changes.
Disqualify them and change the schedule to prevent it from happening again. |
I think it's an embarrassment; I'm too competitive to ever throw a game. However - I don't think that throwing a game for a better seeding is dq worthy unless the players are bribed into doing so. |
BREAKING NEWS:
BADMINTON
"Eight badminton players have been disqualified from the women's doubles competition after being accused of "not using one's best efforts to win". South Korea's coach Sung Han-kook, said: "The Chinese started this. They did it first....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19072677 |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| sml7285 wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
Exactly the same as in soccer, before they made changes.
Disqualify them and change the schedule to prevent it from happening again. |
I think it's an embarrassment; I'm too competitive to ever throw a game. However - I don't think that throwing a game for a better seeding is dq worthy unless the players are bribed into doing so. |
Well, the number one problem is a draw what would allow for this to happen. But I think if you are purposefully losing, no matter what the reason, you should be disqualified. |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| That's true actually, hardly a week goes by when he's not calling someone he disagrees with stupid/dense/moron or member of the peanut gallery. |
Perhaps I should adopt your style. You know, where you make baseless accusations and insults, then when proven wrong time and time again, you claim you were only joking the entire time. Why that happened again just last week:
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=221859&start=30
Someday I hope you gain he maturity to man up and admit you were wrong or apologize for your boorish behavior. Or at least learn to keep your mouth shut if you don't know what you're talking about. |
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
| sml7285 wrote: |
| transmogrifier wrote: |
Exactly the same as in soccer, before they made changes.
Disqualify them and change the schedule to prevent it from happening again. |
I think it's an embarrassment; I'm too competitive to ever throw a game. However - I don't think that throwing a game for a better seeding is dq worthy unless the players are bribed into doing so. |
Well, the number one problem is a draw what would allow for this to happen. But I think if you are purposefully losing, no matter what the reason, you should be disqualified. |
True, but I place the burden of responsibility on the governing body. Athletes are like little kids - they'll do everything that hey can to get what they want. If there is a loophole in the system, they'll take advantage of it - ie the steroids era in baseball or the polyurethane swimsuit worn in the Beijing Olympics.
I get that people should have a certain level of dignity, but when it comes to winning, it's like my former swim coach used to say: "You have to be willing to do everything in your power to win... if pushing your grandmother down a flight of stairs will help you go faster, by all means give granny a shove." |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| leicsmac wrote: |
Good grief - now I've heard a few different explanations for what happened. Which one is correct?
Did the timer become stuck? (according to the Yahoo report)
Did Shin infringe? (according to the BBC report)
Are there other theories too? |
The BBC has been very biased in their reporting. They do not want a controversy over the Olympics that the English are hosting.
To answer your questions, she did infringe, but the BBC failed to report that after the alleged infringement, the clock got stuck at one second and Heidemann needed about three seconds to score and that's what the protest was about.
Here's another explanation:
Shin A-Lam's failure to advance on from her semifinal match against Germany's Britta Heidemann was through no fault of her own.
The South Korean fencer was tied at five with the defending Olympic gold medalist when the clock struck zero. She would have been awarded the upset victory and a chance at the gold medal if she lasted through the sudden death round due to a "priority ruling," but that was not the case.
According to BBC, "referee Barbara Csar reset the time with one second left after Shin was guilty of an infringement..."
The judges then presumably followed protocol and adjusted the clock accordingly.
Per The Telegraph: "The countdown clock in the 25-year-old�s contest against reigning Olympic gold medallist Britta Heidemann was reset from zero to one second with the scores tied on 5-5."
That seems reasonable enough, and well-warranted if Shin did indeed commit a violation that called for more time to be put on the clock.
What isn't reasonable is this next part (via The Washington Post): "It was during this third �second� that Heidemann scored the winning point, prompting the South Korean appeal."
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1278593-shin-a-lam-fencing-controversy-exposes-embarrassing-olympic-flaws |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
| I said she had to be threatened with a yellow card to finally let up, which someone linked to. |
sml7285 said that your claims were "untrue and untrue" and posted a link to show how you were wrong in claiming that she was threatened with a yellow card to "finally let up." But somehow you interpreted this as vindication of your position? Maybe delusional is a more appropriate word than dense? |
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transmogrifier
Joined: 02 Jan 2012
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:00 am Post subject: |
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I still can't get my head around the "priority" ruling in fencing. It has to be one of the most ridiculous rules I have ever heard. If the scores are tied, the judge randomly selects one of the competitors just before overtime starts, and if the scores are tied at the end of overtime, that person wins. I mean...there must be some traditional background to it, mustn't there?
Anyway, it does appear that according to the rules, the Koreans got gypped. And it is interesting that the Korean was told that if she left the stage, it would mean she was admitting defeat (but who told her that? The article doesn't say.)
But the weirdest thing is apparently the Koreans had to pay money for their appeal to be considered, and they didn't. At an "amateur" event, they had to pay to have a ruling looked at again. Doesn't make much sense to me. |
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madoka
Joined: 27 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
Anyway, it does appear that according to the rules, the Koreans got gypped. |
Which is why FIE tried to offer Shin a consolation medal for their clock getting stuck.
"Czech Frederick Janda, an executive board member of the International Fencing Federation, told reporters: "It was a technical issue and a very unhappy situation - we pay so much money for the technical service."
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| And it is interesting that the Korean was told that if she left the stage, it would mean she was admitting defeat (but who told her that? The article doesn't say.) |
From a different interview, it sounds like she already was aware of the rule:
"The hour was really difficult - I was thinking of all the time that I've spent training for the Olympics - but I thought if I got a yellow card (for leaving the piste) I might not be able to fight for bronze."
| transmogrifier wrote: |
| But the weirdest thing is apparently the Koreans had to pay money for their appeal to be considered, and they didn't. At an "amateur" event, they had to pay to have a ruling looked at again. Doesn't make much sense to me. |
Here's a closeup of the wad of $100s that the Japanese paid for their appeal:
http://www.businessinsider.com/japan-gymnastics-cash-olympics-2012-7 |
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sml7285
Joined: 26 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| transmogrifier wrote: |
I still can't get my head around the "priority" ruling in fencing. It has to be one of the most ridiculous rules I have ever heard. If the scores are tied, the judge randomly selects one of the competitors just before overtime starts, and if the scores are tied at the end of overtime, that person wins. I mean...there must be some traditional background to it, mustn't there?
Anyway, it does appear that according to the rules, the Koreans got gypped. And it is interesting that the Korean was told that if she left the stage, it would mean she was admitting defeat (but who told her that? The article doesn't say.)
But the weirdest thing is apparently the Koreans had to pay money for their appeal to be considered, and they didn't. At an "amateur" event, they had to pay to have a ruling looked at again. Doesn't make much sense to me. |
I think these Olympics in particular have shown which international sporting organizations have their shit together and which ones don't.
Fencing needs the following changes in my opinion: 1) A timing system that joins the 21st century with timing down to hundredths of a second; 2) an appeals process that doesn't require the appealing party to remain on the piste and 3) a change in the priority tie system.
Here's an animated gif I found of the "stuck" timer: http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/enhanced/web05/2012/7/30/16/anigif_enhanced-buzz-3083-1343678917-1.gif
Pretty clear that the timer never started. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:06 am Post subject: |
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As odd as it may seem, there seems to be a group of people on here who spend quite a bit of time finding any event that makes or would make Korea look bad. They often trip over annoying things like facts in their hurry to post in glee over whatever failure or negative event happened to Korean athletes or teams. I mean, it is one thing to cheer for a team or a country, it is kind of mental to cheer against a team, country or athlete when they are not facing someone you cheer for. 
Priceless.
Seriously, those Badminton players deserved disqualification as that was clearly unsportsman like conduct. No debate there as far as I am concerned. |
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leicsmac
Joined: 07 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Sounds like an almighty tangle to me, and it sounds like no one really had a handle on what was going on, which looks very bad for both the judges and the fencing Federation (not to mention the Olympics) as a whole. I still think there is a clear issue with not knowing how much time there was left when the German fencer scored the decisive hit.
Agree with sml that radical overhaul of the fencing scoring and judging system is required to prevent this happening again.
However...this was an honest mistake, and this is not the only sport (Olympic or otherwise) to have fallibility from its judging systems. Indeed, practically all of them do.
To have the hysterical overreaction and witch-hunt from Korean netizens (again, not entirely unique to them alone when this kind of thing happens but they do seem to mobilise in far bigger numbers) towards the Games as a whole because of this tangle-up is deeply unfair. Perhaps I feel this more because it is my country staging these Games...that's my lookout I guess.
And I notice there hasn't been much reaction from the netizens (Korean or otherwise) regarding the badminton disqualifications, which for me is a far bigger controversy.
When things like this happen and a decision is not biased, but possibly wrong...you appeal if you can, but afterwards you chalk it up to the vagaries of sport, and you move on. It's damned horrible, but you must.
I guess I'm raging against the machine here because people with an Internet connection and a misplaced patriotic grudge will always be here. It's just...depressing to observe sometimes.
Anyway...Team GB up to 10th in the medals table now. Still looking for 4th as an overall target because there's plenty of medal hopes in the rowing and sailing still to come. A few chances on the track and field too. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| madoka wrote: |
| The BBC has been very biased in their reporting. They do not want a controversy over the Olympics that the English are hosting. |
I don't know why you have it in for the BBC. It's been hard to get the straight dope from any news source.
But thanks for that article you linked to, that seems to make it pretty clear. Heidemann scored a hit after the 1 second extra time awarded had in fact expired.
Jeez, why couldn't any other article make that point clear?
I still don't know if the BBC was being deliberately vague. For one thing, BBC news reports are often excessively cautious and lacking in detail because (presumably) they want to stay away from controversial accusations. For another, few other English language news sources have been very forthcoming either. |
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