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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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 Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:46 pm Post subject: Grammar question - "John and Dave both ___." |
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What do you think "both" refers to when you are given the incomplete sentence, "John and Dave both ___."?
Personally, I would more often associate "both" to refer to John and Dave instead of the following:
"John and Dave are both generous and caring."
The word "both" could refer to their qualities and not just them.
Would you advise students to omit "both" when referring to two qualities? Or do you feel the two uses are equally valid? |
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jeremydc808
Joined: 16 Apr 2012
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| I would take out the both. |
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philthor
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Location: America
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Even if you remove "both," the conjunctions still mean that the individuals each have the two characteristics that follow at the end. "Both" serves as emphasis. |
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luckylady
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar question - "John and Dave both ___." |
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| YTMND wrote: |
What do you think "both" refers to when you are given the incomplete sentence, "John and Dave both ___."?
Personally, I would more often associate "both" to refer to John and Dave instead of the following:
"John and Dave are both generous and caring."
The word "both" could refer to their qualities and not just them.
Would you advise students to omit "both" when referring to two qualities? Or do you feel the two uses are equally valid? |
in your initial example you had "both" before the verb "are" therefore
John and Dave both are caring for their cat.
both refers to John and Dave, as stated, for emphasis
in your later example, either inadvertently or not, you have "both" after the verb "are" therefore
John and Dave are both eager and lovingly caring for their cat.
both refers to their qualities of eager and lovingly again for emphasis
hope this helps. |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar question - "John and Dave both ___." |
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| luckylady wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
What do you think "both" refers to when you are given the incomplete sentence, "John and Dave both ___."?
Personally, I would more often associate "both" to refer to John and Dave instead of the following:
"John and Dave are both generous and caring."
The word "both" could refer to their qualities and not just them.
Would you advise students to omit "both" when referring to two qualities? Or do you feel the two uses are equally valid? |
in your initial example you had "both" before the verb "are" therefore
John and Dave both are caring for their cat.
both refers to John and Dave, as stated, for emphasis
in your later example, either inadvertently or not, you have "both" after the verb "are" therefore
John and Dave are both eager and lovingly caring for their cat.
both refers to their qualities of eager and lovingly again for emphasis
hope this helps. |
I don't think that matters. They both are not what I was referring to. The word order of "both" and "are" or "are" and "both" don't change the choice of the word "both". As others have noted, "both" can simply be omitted, but "are" still needs to be there.
The word "both" is more to give emphasis.
Last edited by YTMND on Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zyzyfer
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: who, what, where, when, why, how?
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Err to add on to what luckylady said, while using "John and Dave both" is generally accepted, it's probably bad form for in the ESL classroom. I'd go with using "Both John and Dave" to avoid confusion.
Or if they're high level enough, I guess you could explain that "both" can follow nouns connected by "and" although it sounds freakish when the nouns aren't the subject of the sentence, e.g.:
We met John and Dave both.  |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Err to add on to what luckylady said, while using "John and Dave both" is generally accepted, it's probably bad form for in the ESL classroom. I'd go with using "Both John and Dave" to avoid confusion. |
I was adressing the choice of the word both. Regardless if you put it before the names, after the names but before "are", or after the names but after "are", it is not necessary. It only serves as emphasis.
However, "Both they___" sentences would be rather strange constructions. I can't find a correct way to use that pattern.
| Quote: |
| We met John and Dave both. |
Actually, there is no problem with that. It can convey a feeling similar to "in fact" or "actually".
Cindy: So Matt, have you finally had a chance to meet up with either John or Dave to discuss the new budget plan?
Matt: On Monday, I met John and Dave both. They said it would reduce costs by 5% (blah blah blah). |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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It is a higher level grammar question that doesn't matter much for any of the different ESL classes I've taught - but -
I think it does make a difference if the both is before or after the are in the two sentences.
Both adds emphasis - before are it refers back to the two names - after it refers forward to the adjectives. |
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luckylady
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:47 am Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| Quote: |
| We met John and Dave both. |
Actually, there is no problem with that. It can convey a feeling similar to "in fact" or "actually".
Cindy: So Matt, have you finally had a chance to meet up with either John or Dave to discuss the new budget plan?
Matt: On Monday, I met John and Dave both. They said it would reduce costs by 5% (blah blah blah). |
that is such a badly constructed sentence in so many ways - I seriously hope you don't use that as an example.
i.e., in this instance "both" is BOTH redundant and unnecessary not to mention in the wrong place.
i.e., "I met both John and Dave." would be acceptable. |
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luckylady
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:51 am Post subject: Re: Grammar question - "John and Dave both ___." |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| luckylady wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
What do you think "both" refers to when you are given the incomplete sentence, "John and Dave both ___."?
Personally, I would more often associate "both" to refer to John and Dave instead of the following:
"John and Dave are both generous and caring."
The word "both" could refer to their qualities and not just them.
Would you advise students to omit "both" when referring to two qualities? Or do you feel the two uses are equally valid? |
in your initial example you had "both" before the verb "are" therefore
John and Dave both are caring for their cat.
both refers to John and Dave, as stated, for emphasis
in your later example, either inadvertently or not, you have "both" after the verb "are" therefore
John and Dave are both eager and lovingly caring for their cat.
both refers to their qualities of eager and lovingly again for emphasis
hope this helps. |
I don't think that matters. They both are not what I was referring to. The word order of "both" and "are" or "are" and "both" don't change the choice of the word "both". As others have noted, "both" can simply be omitted, but "are" still needs to be there.
The word "both" is more to give emphasis. |
of course it matters!! whether it's before or after the verb "are" is of critical importance both grammatically and for comprehension - and I've been using "both" a few times now to explain the differences.
the question to you is do you want to use it for the subject or the predicate?
I understand you want emphasis but where exactly do you want the emphasis placed? no need to respond, this is for your own understanding.
if it's on the subject then you need to place it in such a position that it's not supporting/modifying the verb. |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| BOTH redundant and unnecessary not to mention in the wrong place |
One reason why English is so hard for people to study is the amount of freedom it has in terms of grammar. Where something is placed is often a choice of emphasis on the part of the speaker.
Of course, that is not what our teachers tell us in middle school.
And some teachers argue you have to be that way with students.
There are two schools of thought on the issue, but I'm in the other camp, and the grad school I went to had several profs who took pride in being anti-grammarians.
They did not want us going into a regular English Language Arts classroom and doing lots of sentence diagramming and grammar worksheets -- instilling the idea in our students that English grammar was some type of restrictive mathmatics. That is was always a question of right and wrong usage. That English grammar was inflexible. That the language did not permit significant freedom in expression.
They pointed out the history of English grammar started when some scholars in the 1500s sought to standardized English usage by moulding it to Latin Grammar - the language of the educated back then --- trying to shape one language to fit the mould of another:
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| The first English grammar, Pamphlet for Grammar by William Bullokar, written with the seeming goal of demonstrating that English was quite as rule-bound as Latin, was published in 1586. Bullokar's grammar was faithfully modeled on William Lily's Latin grammar, Rudimenta Grammatices (1534). Lily's grammar was being used in schools in England at that time, having been "prescribed" for them in 1542 by Henry VIII. Although Bullokar wrote his grammar in English and used a "reformed spelling system" of his own invention, many English grammars, for much of the century after Bullokar's effort, were to be written in Latin; this was especially so for books whose authors were aiming to be scholarly. Christopher Cooper's Grammatica Lingu� Anglican� (1685) was the last English grammar written in Latin. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_English_grammars |
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YTMND
Joined: 16 Jan 2012
Location: You're the man now dog!!
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| luckylady wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
| Quote: |
| We met John and Dave both. |
Actually, there is no problem with that. It can convey a feeling similar to "in fact" or "actually".
Cindy: So Matt, have you finally had a chance to meet up with either John or Dave to discuss the new budget plan?
Matt: On Monday, I met John and Dave both. They said it would reduce costs by 5% (blah blah blah). |
that is such a badly constructed sentence in so many ways - I seriously hope you don't use that as an example.
i.e., in this instance "both" is BOTH redundant and unnecessary not to mention in the wrong place.
i.e., "I met both John and Dave." would be acceptable. |
Please cite where it is wrong or badly constructed. It seems perfectly fine to show emphasis. The person asking and the person answering know it would be rare for John and Dave to be available at the same time. It was an odd circumstance, but he was able to meet them BOTH.
I really hope you aren't marking students wrong if they use it, because it is perfectly acceptable.
Last edited by YTMND on Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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iggyb
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:08 am Post subject: |
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Which reminds me - I don't know how they teach writing in middle and high school in Canada or other English-speaking country, but in the US, many teachers teach formulaic writing - like the good ole 5 paragraph essay.
Some take it down to the point of telling students step-by-step what each sentence in a paragraph should do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schaffer_paragraph
That is one type of formulaic writing you can find. Two of the teachers I did my student teaching with (1 middle school and 1 high school) taught writing like this with even their Honors classes...
Some teachers like it because it is easy to teach - with ready-made lesson plans - and easy to grade and easy to justify because you have a set rubric at hand to judge by....
It stifles the brain and firmly shuts the door to the freedom within the language and writing.... |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: Grammar question - "John and Dave both ___." |
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| luckylady wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
| luckylady wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
What do you think "both" refers to when you are given the incomplete sentence, "John and Dave both ___."?
Personally, I would more often associate "both" to refer to John and Dave instead of the following:
"John and Dave are both generous and caring."
The word "both" could refer to their qualities and not just them.
Would you advise students to omit "both" when referring to two qualities? Or do you feel the two uses are equally valid? |
in your initial example you had "both" before the verb "are" therefore
John and Dave both are caring for their cat.
both refers to John and Dave, as stated, for emphasis
in your later example, either inadvertently or not, you have "both" after the verb "are" therefore
John and Dave are both eager and lovingly caring for their cat.
both refers to their qualities of eager and lovingly again for emphasis
hope this helps. |
I don't think that matters. They both are not what I was referring to. The word order of "both" and "are" or "are" and "both" don't change the choice of the word "both". As others have noted, "both" can simply be omitted, but "are" still needs to be there.
The word "both" is more to give emphasis. |
of course it matters!! whether it's before or after the verb "are" is of critical importance both grammatically and for comprehension - and I've been using "both" a few times now to explain the differences.
the question to you is do you want to use it for the subject or the predicate?
I understand you want emphasis but where exactly do you want the emphasis placed? no need to respond, this is for your own understanding.
if it's on the subject then you need to place it in such a position that it's not supporting/modifying the verb. |
This thread comes to mind when discussing grammar with the OP. I'm not sure if anyone can get through no matter how you present it.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=221783&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 |
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luckylady
Joined: 30 Jan 2012
Location: u.s. of occupied territories
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| YTMND wrote: |
| luckylady wrote: |
| YTMND wrote: |
| Quote: |
| We met John and Dave both. |
Actually, there is no problem with that. It can convey a feeling similar to "in fact" or "actually".
Cindy: So Matt, have you finally had a chance to meet up with either John or Dave to discuss the new budget plan?
Matt: On Monday, I met John and Dave both. They said it would reduce costs by 5% (blah blah blah). |
that is such a badly constructed sentence in so many ways - I seriously hope you don't use that as an example.
i.e., in this instance "both" is BOTH redundant and unnecessary not to mention in the wrong place.
i.e., "I met both John and Dave." would be acceptable. |
Please cite where it is wrong or badly constructed. It seems perfectly fine to show emphasis. The person asking and the person answering know it would be rare for John and Dave to be available at the same time. It was an odd circumstance, but he was able to meet them BOTH.
I really hope you aren't marking students wrong if they use it, because it is perfectly acceptable. |
if a student presented such a sentence in my class I would refer to it as clumsy and badly constructed; it is rare I use the term "wrong" in my class as it should be reserved for the most obvious mistakes possible.
you keep using examples that are different from your initial question. in the above response you are using an entirely different sentence altogether -
"he was able to meet them both" is fine.
but the one you had above: "I met John and Dave both" is not; you are leaving the "both" hanging there waiting for the rest of the predicate to catch up - you still seem to not get when it's part of the subject and part of the predicate.
if you said "John and Dave both met me" it would be fine;
also
"I met John and Dave both at the same time" would also be fine. |
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