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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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 Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 12:32 am Post subject: |
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| Kimbop wrote: |
| Completely superfluous. Canada already has all of the above. MUssolini simply took them away. |
Would it be so bad to look towards different models? If I'm not mistaken, Canada has a similar number of guns per capita, but far less gun crime.
Why not at least consider it/them?
| stilicho25 wrote: |
All of those are reasonable IF you trust your government and the police. With the drug war, patriot act, and the general smell of things going very, very wrong the registration scares me.
Agreed on the training and psych tests, but no go on the six month waiting period. If you have a rash of break ins you might need a weapon quick. |
Wasn't there already a discussion about the effectiveness of armed civilians vs Gov control/tyranny?
What would you consider a reasonable waiting time? |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:05 am Post subject: |
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So other countries around the world are free but have strict gun laws, but that's irrelevant. To some people those countries are socialist bastions of commie-tyranny.
Of course back home guns are necessary to defend us against tyranny. Unfortunately the country is currently run by a Communist-Muslim, backed by the jack-booted thugs of the FBI, ATF, and local police. And is a tool of the military-industrial-prison complex with its wars for oil, war on drugs, and Patriot Act.
Anyone else seeing an inconsistency here? "The 2nd Amendment is necessary to keep America free from tyranny." Next thread over "Obama is the head of the tyrannical Military-Industrial Republocrat complex".
If guns were so effective against tyranny, there wouldn't be a military-industrial complex or War on Drugs or Patriot Act. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:34 am Post subject: |
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A reasonable waiting time is the completion of an in depth training course I would say.
As for militia vs gov, I hope I made my point in my previous posts.
As for gun laws in freedom, I do believe there could be a correlation. Japan strikes my as very much not free, and they have some crazy strict weapon laws, down to 3 Inch swiss army knives. Finland and Norway usually rank as very free, and have liberal gun laws. Yeah, I know afghanistan has lots of guns, but that has nothing to do with what we are talking about. That is more like martial anarchy, not federalism.
I think culture changes over time. You don't go from free to not free in a generation, but over a long while. That is barring conquest or revolution of course. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| I'm curious what a standard gauge of 'not so free' is. |
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stilicho25
Joined: 05 Apr 2010
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Well, according to that link, both Sk and Japan are reasonably free.
Your quote of..
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| Japan strikes my as very much not free |
Seems off. But, it's just an opinion, and you're welcome to it. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| So other countries around the world are free but have strict gun laws, but that's irrelevant. To some people those countries are socialist bastions of commie-tyranny. |
You cannot honestly compare Japan's or Korea's firearms culture to America without recognizing the different histories. I'm totally open to an honest comparison of America's firearms regulations with Canada's and Switzerland's, as long as the presentation is honest (unlike say Michael Moore's).
I don't think the United States can constitutionally implement or enforce criminal background checks. Those would have to be state initiatives (See US v. Lopez).
A Federal Firearms ban won't work. But we should look to the Constitution's text and to Switzerland. The U.S. should permit military-grade firearms, but regulate them heavily as through Militias. Militias could be treated much like the National Guard, and the United States could justify their creation through the wording of the Second Amendment and its power to raise armies.
The gov't needs to recruit firearms enthusiasts, not persecute them. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
[What about...
1. A national registration of gun owners
2. A national registration of guns
3 . 3-6 months process to obtain a firearm
4. Mandatory training
5. Criminal BG checks
6. Psych tests (?)
7. Strict laws regarding storage
8. Strict laws regarding reporting of lost/stolen firearms |
(points numbered for easy reference.)
Canada has pretty much all of these except the psych tests however the gun registry system is being scrapped under Harper (more on this later.)
1. No...absolutely not. Why? See number 2.
2. Been there done that. This gun registry was set up by the Liberals and when first set up we were told it would cost about 2 million. Fast forward and now it's around 2 BILLION dollars. Any system that ends up with its costs multiplied by 1000 is just begging for corruption, patronage, wastage...
3. 30 days is fine. That's enough time to run a BG check and find out if s/he has a criminal record. I don't think the government should be in the business of assuming everyone is a criminal. A clean record should equate gun ownership.
4 and 5. Yes agreed.
6. No. Again a clean record should equate gun ownership. We don't need yet another layer of bureacratic oversight. Nor be held at the mercy of some person who may decide just because she or he doesn't like you to recommend you not get one. Plus who pays for these psych tests? Time would also be a factor...there's a few million gun owners out there. Too many potential problems with this one.
7 and 8. Yes agreed. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:17 am Post subject: |
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Personally, I think it is a tragedy that people that are at minimum mentally ill (yes, people that see Injuns, Redcoats and HORRORS! the gov't, behind every bush are on the fringes of sanity) get to control this issue.
The core of the problem is not the guns, but the mind-set of all too many Americans. Our society is blood-thirsty and violent. 'Uncivilized' is not too strong a word. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I don't think the United States can constitutionally implement or enforce criminal background checks. Those would have to be state initiatives (See US v. Lopez).
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Anyone besides me fed up with people citing Supreme Court decisions as if they meant anything other than the opinion of the vested interests of whatever issue is at hand?
There was a time when the Court's decisions could be respected, (I'm not even sure that is true) but that seems to be pretty far in the past now.
The idea of an independent judiciary is a nice idea, but it has proven itself to be an empty ideal, at least as far as the current system is configured. Maybe there is another way to set up the system, but at present, I don't care what the SC says is 'constitutional' or 'legal'. I only know if I had more money, I could have changed the decision. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Kimbop wrote: |
| Completely superfluous. Canada already has all of the above. MUssolini simply took them away. |
Would it be so bad to look towards different models? If I'm not mistaken, Canada has a similar number of guns per capita, but far less gun crime.
Why not at least consider it/them? |
Consideration is moot because we'd be cutting off our arm to protect the finger. So if a farmer wants to shoot some coyotes on his land, you want to make him wait six months? I can buy a sawed-off Remington 597 w/30-clip in East Hastings Vancouver for 50 bucks. Tomorrow.
Accessibility to guns is not the cause insomuch as a 'criminal culture', which is rampant in the US among certain demographics: Canada has a lower incidence of gun crime because, statistically, Canada does not have a broad, expansive underclass. (Canada's underclass, much like in the US, reflectively commits 70% of reported crimes, but our underclass is a much smaller %age of overall population.)
Criminals will *not* follow your forced, tyrannical criteria for legal gun ownership. They'll just buy a gun on Burnaby kijiji instead. |
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Kimbop
Joined: 31 Mar 2008
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Our society is blood-thirsty and violent. 'Uncivilized' is not too strong a word. |
Statistically most gun crimes are committed by an expansive broad 'underclass', most of which votes for Democrats. Therefore an argument would be that primarily our Democrat underclass is "blood-thirsty and violent".
There is no greater form of "civilization", in its proper contextual use of the word, than to trust our fellow neighbors. If ya-ta, or Captain Korea, or anyone else on this board were to brandish a gun, I would feel completely at ease. That's trust. That's the true definition of "civility".
Drive a car. carry a gun. Carry a butterknife. Carry a brick. These are all weapons. In a civilized society, I trust my fellow man to be an honourable citizen. Have faith in your neighbor. That's civility. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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You need a license to drive a car. In many areas, years of probation to do so.
Sure, criminals can always steal a car, drive it illegally, and kill people. But I see no harm in setting up a testing and licensing system for driving a car.
In turn, I see a testing and licensing requirement for gun use/ownership as reasonable.... Not tyrannical. |
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fermentation
Joined: 22 Jun 2009
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| I wouldn't mind that. I think people should be at least be taught the basics of gun safety and its operation before getting one. I also like the idea of militias Kuros mentioned. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, I find that interesting as well. I think some type of reserve/militia with continued training and supervision should allow for more varied ordinance ownership. |
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